Hoax? - Sand Falls too Fast.

[bknight]

I'm seeing enough from you that confirms you are out of your depth.

In the past, I have spent many months in debate with Fundamentalist Christians over their core belief that "everyone who doesn't believe as I do about Jesus, is going to Hell, because Jesus is the only way" - about the authenticity/history/nuances/corruptions/authority of their Bible.  And their posture was much like yours now.  I had a great many lower IQ people telling me how stupid I was.

Why?  Because in their mind, the Bible was 100% God's word, and anyone who said otherwise was either Evil or Stupid.   Cognitive Dissonance is painful for most.  And Confirmation Bias runs strong in us all - including me.  This is why I MUCH prefer to hang out here with opposition, to put my own confirmation bias under fire, and prevent me from believing unsupported or exaggerated beliefs.

My goal is to present 100% integrity here.   As I go, I am increasing my own understanding of a great many things - because Iron Sharpens Iron, and Airplanes get their lift from resistance.

Irreverent and off topic.

[Mag40]

In the past, I have spent many months in debate with Fundamentalist Christians over their core belief that "everyone who doesn't believe as I do about Jesus, is going to Hell, because Jesus is the only way" - about the authenticity/history/nuances/corruptions/authority of their Bible.  And their posture was much like yours now.

Yeah, that is just so interesting.

I had a great many lower IQ people telling me how stupid I was.

Nobody is telling you that and your suggesting that people around here are similar is just more of your rudeness. Your posts do "all the talking". Instead of addressing numerous points that debunk your thread claim and your erroneous core-belief, you chose one that suggests your failure to address any of them shows you are out of your depth. Ironically aptly demonstrating my point completely.

This is why I MUCH prefer to hang out here with opposition, to put my own confirmation bias under fire, and prevent me from believing unsupported or exaggerated beliefs.

Yet, here you are persisting in it. You arrived proclaiming how smart you are, but in less than a week we see that your beliefs are dictating your words entirely. Every clear observation results in you cobbling together anything you can to obfuscate it or divert.

My goal is to present 100% integrity here.

Well you failed completely.

As I go, I am increasing my own understanding of a great many things - because Iron Sharpens Iron, and Airplanes get their lift from resistance.

This forum awaits a proper display of integrity. Sand goes up with the jumper for reasons given to you. Any competent physicist would understand that. You can't even agree on fundamentals of friction. Your whole modus-operandi is to immediately think of a way to dismiss, but that same mode never once attempts it on your own debunked claims.

Now, would you be so kind as to stop pissing everyone about and show this so called integrity.

Answer my post properly. Free flight visible parabola/dust wave. Time up=time down. Lower gravity. Wave of regolith that is crazily too high for a little sideways boot flick on Earth.

[najak]

Answer my post properly. Free flight visible parabola/dust wave. Time up=time down. Lower gravity. Wave of regolith that is crazily too high for a little sideways boot flick on Earth.

I've answered this multiple times.
"Time up = Time down" is NOT TRUE if there is a force "along the way" helping it to rise...  Your over simplified principle assumes there are "no upward forces acting on the dust after the boot leaves the ground".

We SEE IT RISE WITH THE BOOT -- but THEN FALLS WAY FASTER.

You think it "fully dissipates to becoming near 100% invisible close to the camera" - I disagree.

So we're going in circles.  I would LOVE to bring in a real physicist here to weigh in.  Without that - we're at an impasse.   This topic has wound down to a close, unless someone new and smarter chimes in.

[najak]

Irreverent and off topic.

On topic, because I'm seeing a behavioral parallel/pattern between Fundamentalist Christians (the hard core ones) and Apollogists.

We have modern day PROOF that BILLIONS believe Hoaxes that have lasted for HUNDREDS of YEARS.

Is it a FACT that:
1. Either the Christians believe a HOAX, OR   (2.5 Billion and falling)
2. The Muslims believe a HOAX, OR  (1.6 Billion and growing)
3. BOTH.  (4 billion -- 50% of all humans)

Likewise, with the USA 2020 election -- here again, the same concept applies.   At least ONE HALF of Americans believe a HOAX - because both beliefs are contradictory.

Apollo behaves much like a religion.   Many people hold to it, using logic that is very similar to how religious people hold to their beliefs/Books.

[Bryanpoprobson]

In the past, I have spent many months in debate with Fundamentalist Christians over their core belief that "everyone who doesn't believe as I do about Jesus, is going to Hell, because Jesus is the only way" - about the authenticity/history/nuances/corruptions/authority of their Bible.  And their posture was much like yours now.  I had a great many lower IQ people telling me how stupid I was.

Why?  Because in their mind, the Bible was 100% God's word, and anyone who said otherwise was either Evil or Stupid.   Cognitive Dissonance is painful for most.  And Confirmation Bias runs strong in us all - including me.  This is why I MUCH prefer to hang out here with opposition, to put my own confirmation bias under fire, and prevent me from believing unsupported or exaggerated beliefs.

My goal is to present 100% integrity here.   As I go, I am increasing my own understanding of a great many things - because Iron Sharpens Iron, and Airplanes get their lift from resistance.

There is a big difference between faith and facts.

[bknight]

Irreverent and off topic.

On topic, because I'm seeing a behavioral parallel/pattern between Fundamentalist Christians (the hard core ones) and Apollogists.

We have modern day PROOF that BILLIONS believe Hoaxes that have lasted for HUNDREDS of YEARS.

Is it a FACT that:
1. Either the Christians believe a HOAX, OR   (2.5 Billion and falling)
2. The Muslims believe a HOAX, OR  (1.6 Billion and growing)
3. BOTH.  (4 billion -- 50% of all humans)

Likewise, with the USA 2020 election -- here again, the same concept applies.   At least ONE HALF of Americans believe a HOAX - because both beliefs are contradictory.

Apollo behaves much like a religion.   Many people hold to it, using logic that is very similar to how religious people hold to their beliefs/Books.

The topic is allegedly sand falling faster than it should on the Moon.  So what you posted is off topic and irrelevant to the general public.

[Mag40]

If this was BAUT you would be compelled to start answering posts properly! You keep ignoring things that don't fit, things that all on their little own prove they are in low gravity and vacuum.

The consistent way dust behaves in countless sections of EVAs is devastating proof. The non-Earth distances it moves, the non-suspension of particles, the speed of the dust, only affected by gravity in its duration of flight. Sped up, things like Schmitt falling over where he splatters dust everywhere, look insanely wrong.

This forum isn't yours to determine "we are going round in circles"! You are cowardly avoiding things and I simply won't let you do that.

Friction is the primary cause, aided by electrostatic attraction. It doesn't fall to the ground faster - that is really deceptive of you. I have proven that it is often difficult to see the dust/sand falling (sand against sand or grey against grey) so your observation is irrelevant. I have pointed out at least 3 times now that there is shaded area that tracks forwards in front of Young corresponding to dust dispersal.

Repeating the same lie again. Once you've got the first part of that, physics is done and an honest physicist would know this. Time up = time down. Quite clearly circumstances don't favour seeing dust dispersal. The footage is grainy and it's essentially all grey. Your inability to see the second part of the process doesn't mean a thing. You are clinging to it with the only cost your integrity.

You have admitted that the nice little parabola goes up with his boot. That is an irrefutable aspect of physics. It means for him to do the rising part it has to be at terrestrial freefall speed that is x245% - this is the real reason why you are diverting and obfuscating. Nobody needs to see the second part, the first part does the trick. That tiny little segment of footage proves he is in lower gravity.

You also seem to be doing everything in your power to avoid the other points also:

Gene Cernan Bunny Hops
1. There is a nice parabolic arc of dust level with his boot. Time up = Time down.
2. Disipation is irrelevant grey on grey on poor grainy video.
3. We clearly see 3 impact areas on the ground for each of the last 3 jumps.


Dust Sideways kick
1. The height of this wave is just plain wrong for a little boot flick.
2. The distance requires >7m per second force with a sideways kick? That's ridiculous.
3. No dust suspension, no matter what you claim.
4. Adjusted for gravity without the unsubstantiated, unproven selective magic speed video, the astronauts look extremely unnatural.

[LunarOrbit]

How about you show us why that specific answer is wrong instead of just dismissing it?

It's Mag40's theory - and he proof was a Google AI response, known to be very flawed, especially for niche science.

You're saying it is wrong, so prove it.

[najak]

There is a big difference between faith and facts.

But there is also a LOT of similarity between Apollo and other religions.   BOTH are based on a whole bunch of Facts.  But even religions based upon 95% facts, can be entirely false, especially when you introduce the concept of "my beliefs are the only true ones; all others are doomed to Hell".  This 5% makes it false.

95% of Apollo could have been real.  But the 5% that wasn't -- the part where when it came time to Land, they "faked it" for those 9 days -- this puts a turd into the whole mix.  Spoils the grand finale.

MLH theory is that the determination to take "Plan B - Fake it" became solid in 1967 following Apollo 1, killing the crew while doing a simple sound test (that was failing).   After offing my hero, Thomas Baron, NASA proceeded at a rate 50% faster than earlier by skipping steps, compressing schedule to meet the 1969 date -- even Alan Bean proclaimed at the time "That's Crazy!  You can't do that!" - -but that was before he got the memo. 

Gus Grissom's last words:  "Jesus Christ, if we can't even communicate between 2 or 3 buildings, how are we ever going to get to the moon??"  - 10 seconds later, the fire.

2.5 years later -- On the moon. 6x in a row.  No issues.   And a GREAT MANY mess-ups that have been noticed.... things unexplainable "if it were real".

[najak]

The topic is allegedly sand falling faster than it should on the Moon.  So what you posted is off topic and irrelevant to the general public.

The "manner in which people develop and maintain their worldviews" is fully on topic for every point I make.  It's a "Meta point" that covers all.

So occasionally, it needs to be brought up.   So many Apollogists seem to think that "a Hoax of this magnitude couldn't hold together" - "how did they fool so many?" 

Answer: As a group/society, we're pretty easy to fool, especially when the thing being sold to us, really appeals to us.

This is why so many Apollogists will dig in their heels to defend Apollo to the end.   It's hard to change deeply held worldviews -- and if the Landings were Faked, it opens up a "can of worms" for many people... which they cannot accept.    And so they end up defending Apollo in manners that are very similar to how Religious folks defend their views on God/Heaven/Salvation.

[najak]

You have admitted that the nice little parabola goes up with his boot. That is an irrefutable aspect of physics. It means for him to do the rising part it has to be at terrestrial freefall speed that is x245% - this is the real

I've not admitted "perfect parabola", but only that the "dust rises to the height of the boot's bottom"..

My claim is that forces acted on this dust along the path -- such as an "adhesion effect" where it remained "stuck together" and also "stuck in the boot tread initially".. And the wake of a wide boot does provide a low-pressure zone that causes the air to move with it -- thus also eliminates some air resistance.

And then these forces stopped, and what did the sand do next?? 

Answer:  It Fell WAY FASTER than the astronaut's center of mass.   Thus, a sign of fakery.

and you say: Even though it was close, moving upwards, and with no air to dissipate it - it dissiapated to invisible -- you thought it was traveling in a parabola -- but now invisible.

So we disagree.  I'd be glad to get a Physicist in here to weigh in.  Without that -- WE ARE DONE with this point.  Time to move on.  This horse is long-dead.

[najak]

You're saying it is wrong, so prove it.

I'm also saying "it's secondary".   If Mag40 is too lazy to find a good source for his claim - then it's a non-point.  Unsubstantiated.  Nothing to disprove here.

[ApolloEnthusiast]

2.5 years later -- On the moon. 6x in a row.  No issues.   And a GREAT MANY mess-ups that have been noticed.... things unexplainable "if it were real".

This is factually false. They didn't land on the moon 6 times in a row. They landed twice in a row and then four times in a row. Your claim of no issues is also false, as every single mission had substantial problems that needed to be resolved or they would have been forced to abort.

You should already be aware of both of these facts. That you aren't is more evidence that you lack the courtesy to do the appropriate research to properly present your claim.

[Mag40]

I've not admitted "perfect parabola", but only that the "dust rises to the height of the boot's bottom"..

Right then, we're done. Time up = time down.

My claim is that forces acted on this dust along the path -- such as an "adhesion effect" where it remained "stuck together" and also "stuck in the boot tread initially".. And the wake of a wide boot does provide a low-pressure zone that causes the air to move with it -- thus also eliminates some air resistance.

A whole lot of irrelevant bollocks. The nice little (didn't say perfect!) parabola is in independent flight. All physicists see this. If you don't, you aren't one. Besides, what physicist can't understand why it happens!

And then these forces stopped, and what did the sand do next?? 

The magic suction cup, the hyper-inflated pressure variation, the "effect of adhesion" which is certainly not a propelling force! It is an attractive force between molecules. In a rising clump of dust, it attracts molecules to those above and it attracts those above to those below.

Absolutely no way does any competent physicist suggest adhesion is a propelling force.

Answer:  It Fell WAY FASTER than the astronaut's center of mass.   Thus, a sign of fakery.

Is this what it boils down to? You are now acting like a troll. Ignoring virtually everything being addressed and repeating the lie.

and you say:

A great big lie - I haven't said that.

Even though it was close, moving upwards, and with no air to dissipate it - it dissiapated to invisible

Air doesn't dissipate it, kinetic energy in a chaotic process does that

you thought it was traveling in a parabola

It's proven and admitted. The parabola, independent flight rises to boot height in perfect synch. That tiny little parabola has got you by the gonads and as an HB you are scared to admit it.

So we disagree.

Your disagreement on the irrefutable means nothing.

I'd be glad to get a Physicist in here to weigh in.  Without that -- WE ARE DONE with this point.  Time to move on.  This horse is long-dead.

Oh we are NOT done on this at all. You keep playing the HB coward. Besides you claimed to BE a physics expert - with your rude jibes.

All by itself, the little parabola in perfect sync - irrefutably - rises to level with Young's boots. Time up = time down. Your deceptive thread label about it falling too fast - disproven.

1. I provided you with 2 examples of this occurring on the beach - it has simply dispersed and hard to see against a same colour background.
2. You continue to ignore that there is a clear shadow moving away from Young in front of him.
3. You continue to ignore the slight but clear ground discolouration.

Then all this:

You also seem to be doing everything in your power to avoid the other points also:

Gene Cernan Bunny Hops
1. There is a nice parabolic arc of dust level with his boot. Time up = Time down.
2. Disipation is irrelevant grey on grey on poor grainy video.
3. We clearly see 3 impact areas on the ground for each of the last 3 jumps.


Dust Sideways kick
1. The height of this wave is just plain wrong for a little boot flick.
2. The distance requires >7m per second force with a sideways kick? That's ridiculous.
3. No dust suspension, no matter what you claim.
4. Adjusted for gravity without the unsubstantiated, unproven selective magic speed video, the astronauts look extremely unnatural.

[LunarOrbit]

There is a big difference between faith and facts.

But there is also a LOT of similarity between Apollo and other religions.

Discussions involving religion are irrelevant to the topic and serve no purpose other than to help you distract and evade.

I'm getting tired of your dismissive attitude towards the other members of the forum. Stick to things that are verifiable, answer the questions that are directed toward you, stop ignoring/dismissing the answers given to you, and stay on topic.

2.5 years later -- On the moon. 6x in a row.  No issues.

No issues? That shows your ignorance.