Hoax? - Sand Falls too Fast.

[najak]

Curious, because in the footage I have (A17V.1465003.MPG), I can clearly see Cernan, and to a lesser degree Schmitt, kicking up the dust which moves in front of them, and hitting the surface at about the same time they do, especially in Cernan's 'hippity hops', where the dust is landing just after Cernan, showing that he's moving down hill, as the dust is a head of him (lining up with the photos of the area).

Yet, we do not see the "airborne dust", but only a shadow at ground level, indicating disturbances as the dust scuttles.

If it were airborne, it wouldn't all fall at the same exact point for 1/3rd of a second....  However, scuttling sand is far more likely to behave like this.... all hitting the same "slightly high point".

I'm OK with mostly dropping this "Sand falls to fast" issue, and putting it at the bottom of my list -- mostly because it's the most ambiguous and leaves too much room for people to "see what they WANT to see" -- similar to saying "what do you see in those clouds?"

The chaos of dust, seems to work in a similar fashion here.  This is not a good point to linger on.

Compare this to other 3 points - where we are talking about a very well defined singular object (e.g. the flag, the AM, the A12 Dish)... so will stick with those.

To me the sand falling too fast seems painfully obvious, and cannot see at all how someone could miss it.  You seem to feel the same, but with an opposite conclusion.

So I'll just (mostly) drop this specific point for that reason.   I won't call it "undebunkable evidence" as I do for the other 3.

[Miss Vocalcord]

Shadow is black - no light.  No color.   The dust is brownish.  There is clear brownish particles beneath the heel which are NOT shadow.  The shadow edge is SHARP and STABLE -- so when there is coloration that is not directly in front of the shadow, you can see it.   The shadow itself cannot make this "brownish color" nor color that is not directly in front of the shadow..  we have BOTH.

No it is not, right beneath the heel the shadow is much more towards the blue. Only when you're well below the heel it becomes a bit more brownish.

Have you downloaded the MP4, paused, it and manually dragged the frames?  It's hard to deny that there's a LOT of dust here, because of the coloration and the sheer volume that is not explained by the thinner/sharp sharp shadows.

No I'm looking at this video:

Again there is a lot of mix up between shadow, dust and also video compression which doesn't help at all.

But how did he kick the send meters away just seconds before all this? Can you show an example of this on earth?

[Mag40]

This subject has shown how an HB will avoid things and obfuscate responses. Post 180 answer it properly!

Your denial of the Cernan dust wave us just blatant denial  if the visible evidence.

[najak]

#1: Again there is a lot of mix up between shadow, dust and also video compression which doesn't help at all.
#2: But how did he kick the send meters away just seconds before all this? Can you show an example of this on earth?

#1: Gonna drop this whole point as "too ambiguous/chaotic to make a solid/clear proof".  Time to move on.

#2: I downloaded this video from NASA and just played at 2x speed, and it looks pretty good, even when he kicks that dust 2 meters... looks right at 2X... even his motions.

What I find funny is that he can't just bend down to get his hammer -- he has to JUMP first and grab it fast... why???  This is unnatural.  Maybe it's because in this context the cable is pulling him up to hard that he has to jump so that the force downward will give him enough momentum to reach the hammer....

Seriously - why is he making such a very awkward deal about bending down to get his hammer...   This makes no sense to me.

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a16/a16v.1464821.mpg

[najak]

But how did he kick the send meters away just seconds before all this? Can you show an example of this on earth?

WOW, seriously thank you for getting me to rewatch this..  This looks to me as very compelling MLH evidence, all BEFORE his leap.

Watch 1:45 to 3:15 -- it takes him HALF-DOZEN jump tries to get the thing on the ground!  He fails so has to go get some pole to help him get it!

How does an Apollogist reconcile this very peculiar behavior??

MLH explains it very easily -- the cable was pulling up too much, to make bending down not possible...   Why does he JUMP HIGH FIRST in order to bend his knee to the ground?

Why doesn't he simply "kneel down"  It's clear he has to PULL DOWN on something that is holding him up.

Gonna love hearing these responses... THIS one deserves it's own thread.

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a16/a16v.1464821.mpg

[Jason Thompson]

What I find funny is that he can't just bend down to get his hammer -- he has to JUMP first and grab it fast... why???  This is unnatural.

Maybe because he's in a spacesuit that limits his movements, in 1/6th G, with a massive backpack on his back. He's in a rather un-natural situation. Perhaps more significantly, a situation you have never experienced so are not in a position to say what is natural or not in the ways people have of navigating it.

Maybe it's because in this context the cable is pulling him up to hard that he has to jump so that the force downward will give him enough momentum to reach the hammer....

Ah, the 'they're in a studio with cables' argument. Another bingo tick, thanks. Boring. Find this magic studio that is able to survive being depressurised (yes, there is plenty of evidence of vacuum in the footage) and yet big enough to show all this stuff going on.

Unlike you, najak, I have actually seen ALL of the Apollo TV footage, not just a few short clips here and there. There is not one argument from a hoax believer on how it was made that actually explains everything seen in the material. you know what does? Being on the Moon in a vacuum and 1/6th G.

[najak]

Maybe because he's in a spacesuit that limits his movements, in 1/6th G, with a massive backpack on his back. He's in a rather un-natural situation. Perhaps more significantly, a situation you have never experienced so are not in a position to say what is natural or not in the ways people have of navigating it.

In other contexts, they bend down just fine, many many times.  This particular scene was one where the "lift" amount was higher than normal.  Otherwise he could have bent down the same as all the rest of the times they bent down.

The difference?  The amount of "lift" applied to the cable varies per scene, and plan.  This one was specifically more than others.

How can you justify that "his suit didn't allow it"?  When you've seen ALL of the other footage, and know that bending down is no problem.  Done many times, and it doesn't look like this... not even close.

Apollo is a religion.

[Miss Vocalcord]

#2: I downloaded this video from NASA and just played at 2x speed, and it looks pretty good, even when he kicks that dust 2 meters... looks right at 2X... even his motions.

It travels way more then 2 meters, but again, show me how this is done on earth.

Seriously - why is he making such a very awkward deal about bending down to get his hammer...   This makes no sense to me.

Something about pressurized suits maybe?

[najak]

It travels way more then 2 meters, but again, show me how this is done on earth.

Play it at 2X speed, and looks like natural earth movement.  This is how it would look on earth.  Some of this motion is "scuttling" -- that's how dust/sand works... it bounces and rolls a bit.  So that is part of this distance you see.   If the "human movements at 2x speed look fine" then there are no claims you can make for "how would you do this on earth?"  (answer: exactly like it looks when you play this moon clip at 2x speed)

[Miss Vocalcord]

Play it at 2X speed, and looks like natural earth movement.

No it doesn't

Again show somebody kicking dust so far away on the earth.

[najak]

Seriously - why is he making such a very awkward deal about bending down to get his hammer...   This makes no sense to me.

Something about pressurized suits maybe?

He says nothing about pressurized suit.  And MANY MANY MANY times, astronauts bend down.  Many look funny when they do, but they can still do it easily enough. 

But in this particular instance HE CANNOT.  1.5 minute fiasco to pick up something on the ground.

And now ask "why would they leave such gaping mistakes on video??" 

Answer: Because Apollo operates like a religion... All they had to do was make sure it was something people "really wanted to believe" - the rest is easy peasy.

This specific instance might just be the home-run of "awkward astronaut movements", of which there are many.

[najak]

Play it at 2X speed, and looks like natural earth movement.

No it doesn't.   Again show somebody kicking dust so far away on the earth.

Here it is at 2X speed, which looks much like earth activity.   If you think the dust is going to far in this video - then it's also going to far for the moon, at 1/2 this speed.   So maybe, then, it's best explained by a slight wind, pushing it along.  It does seem to coast more than you'd expect for a no-atmosphere moon.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19QMynQO8ce4bCtAyM0Io3k7NHvh2dVLQ/view?usp=drive_link

[Miss Vocalcord]

He says nothing about pressurized suit.  And MANY MANY MANY times, astronauts bend down.  Many look funny when they do, but they can still do it easily enough. 

But in this particular instance HE CANNOT.  1.5 minute fiasco to pick up something on the ground.

Yes because Charlie Duke was bad at it...

[Jones - "A couple of months ago, John told me that he had done some work in the airplane seeing if he could get down to one knee. Do you remember that?"]

[Duke - "Yeah. Uh-huh. And he was good at it. He would jump up and then sort of do a split and then he hit and the momentum would carry him down and he could grab a rock and then, once he got down, the suit tension would pop him back up. He was very good at it. I tried it a couple of times and I wasn't very good at it, so I stopped. I'd looked at it...I could do it in the airplane but, up on the lunar surface, it just seemed like I was always off balance. You know, I'd try to grab and I'd miss it, or I'd grab and it wouldn't come right and it would spin me one direction or the other and I'd end up falling down. So I didn't do much of it; but he did."]

https://www.nasa.gov/history/alsj/a16/a16.lrvdep.html#1192437

And now ask "why would they leave such gaping mistakes on video??" 

Yes and you don't have an answer for it; all is your mumbling hindsight about religion. All this information doesn't sync up with the rest of your religion story you try to keep up with.

[Miss Vocalcord]

Here it is at 2X speed, which looks much like earth activity. 

No it doesn't at all.

Why do you have such a hard time to show something similar on earth?

[Jason Thompson]

In other contexts, they bend down just fine, many many times.

Yes, and in plenty of others they didn't. There are several other examples of them hopping about, jumping into 'odd' positions, and generally doing anything but just bending down to get something off the ground.

The amount of "lift" applied to the cable varies per scene, and plan.  This one was specifically more than others.

First, there is no evidence of a cable. Second, if it was a cable why would the amount of 'lift' vary? That makes no sense from a practical point of view. Once again, this footage is half a century old. Do you think you're the first person to make this suggestion?

How can you justify that "his suit didn't allow it"?

You need to understand what quotation marks actually mean. You use them when you are reproducing words exactly as spoken. I did not say his suit did not allow it, so you are effectively attributing words to me that I did not say. Don't.

What I said was that his suit and the environment makes 'unnatural' movements expected.