Bugbear needs help - Photo alignment

[TimberWolfAu]

Hey, something that has bugged me for a while, and I haven't looked much into, but why does the alignment of the photo on the original transparency change? Some of them rotate 90° on the same magazine, which seems odd given the camera had a very up and down alignment, whilst some others flip 180º entirely.

And as I'm typing, the thought has occurred to check which photos and which lens' were used at the time, since I've seen the same happen just switching between different eyepieces on the telescopes.

For ref, while I go dig a bit more, AS17-139-21204 would be an example of a 90° rotation, while AS17-137-20960 has a 180° flip (compared to other photos from the same magazine, although it's possible this is just a scanning issue). All photos being compared are from March to the Moon (https://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/)

[TimberWolfAu]

Huh, quick update, just having a scroll through March (and using an Apollo 15 list of photos and lens) it looks like all the ones that used the 500mm rotate 90° anti-clockwise. Seems the same on Apollo 17 too.

Cool, gotta be an effect of the lens, so I wonder if it was noted somewhere of if it's just 'duh, any half decent photographer would know this'? (Hint; that aint me )

[Peter B]

They're not rotated on the Lunar and Planetary Institute website, checking the specific A17 photos you mentioned, and magazines 84 and 89 (500mm) on A15.

[TimberWolfAu]

They're not rotated on the Lunar and Planetary Institute website, checking the specific A17 photos you mentioned, and magazines 84 and 89 (500mm) on A15.

Why I noted I was looking at March to the Moon, which are supposed to be scans of the full transparency.

\/ See attached. Green are with the 500mm, and are rotated 90°, while the red group is the 60mm

[Peter B]

Fair enough.

So I did a little checking...

On Apollo 12, while he was inside the LM, Alan Bean took four photos of Pete Conrad out on the porch (AS12-46-6715 to 6718). According to the ALSJ, Bean held the camera upside-down (and at knee level) to take the four photos. On the LPI site, 6715 is shown right way up, while the other three are shown upside-down.

I checked the photos in question on MTTM, and all four were upside-down.

So I think it's reasonable to assume the MTTM photos are all aligned as they were taken - so, sometimes, for various reasons, the astronauts held the cameras sideways or upside down.

This video of Dave Scott tripping on a rock also shows him using the camera with the 500mm lens. I can't tell for sure, but I suppose it's possible he's holding the camera sideways:

[Mag40]

If you look at the raw scans, you can see from the uncropped edges whether it was upside down or at 90 degrees:

https://itoldya420.getarchive.net/amp/media/as12-46-6718-apollo-12-2ed150

The thumbnails are also helpful:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/catalog/70mm/magazine/?46

[bknight]

If you look at the raw scans, you can see from the uncropped edges whether it was upside down or at 90 degrees:

https://itoldya420.getarchive.net/amp/media/as12-46-6718-apollo-12-2ed150

Pete is upside down, a sure sign that it is faked.   

[TimberWolfAu]

So I think it's reasonable to assume the MTTM photos are all aligned as they were taken - so, sometimes, for various reasons, the astronauts held the cameras sideways or upside down.

I find it strange that all the 500mm ones I've seen so far are rotated. Perhaps it was a way of ensuring the camera stayed steady, given the longer lens? Maybe a hangover from training, where a longer lens on Earth would pull down more than on the moon (lower gravity), just spit balling ideas now, so holding sideways helped keep it steady? And once one of them had this figured out, it passed on to the others, so by the time they made it to the surface, it was standard to use to 500mm sideways? Now I'm going to have to go through and try and sync 500mm photos with their occurrence in the video records....  oh darn

Well, that will give me something to do, keep me off the streets and all that.

[onebigmonkey]

I think there are times when it was just easier given the confined of the suit to rotate the camera. A 'research paper' I critiqued on my site tried to make a big deal over a few Apollo 17 images that were correctly oriented on Flickr but retained the original rotated view at March to the Moon.

They'd made the schoolboy error of thinking the camera was always chest mounted, and the TV footage from the time of the images showed Cernan with the detached camera in a variety of positions.

[TimberWolfAu]

Oh, I'm sure it was an ease of use issue, which would explain why it's the 500mm that are rotated. It's more of a little thing I've noticed, and with the recent spike in activity, I was wondering if anyone had seen this addressed or mentioned before.

One of those things on the list of 'interesting things to dig into, when time permits'.

Speaking of 'time', my Apollo 16 PSR made it to the US, now just waiting for it to reach Charlie Duke to sign..... it's kinda nerve wracking not knowing where it is.

[JayUtah]

I'm going for ease of use, according to the following rationale.

When I shot with the Apollo camera at chest level, framing the wide angle lens was easy. I never got a chance to try shooting from the hip with a 500 mm lens (because they didn't have one), but I routinely use 300 mm and 400 mm lenses on my modern DLSR and I think I would really want it at face level to sight along the barrel. This appears to be what the various astronauts are doing.

At that point it becomes an issue of suit mobility. The suit provides the least resistance to forearm rotation at the position with the palm inward at waist level. This is consistent with using the pistol grip at roughly chest level. If you raise your arm to eye level, the easy forearm position on the pistol grip would point the lens skyward. But if you position your right arm palm downward at that level by raising your elbow, you can orient the camera with the pistol grip out to the right side and achieve an easy position that still lets you sight down the barrel.

[Jason Thompson]

When I shot with the Apollo camera...

Honestly, some people, coming on here claiming to be some sort of expert just because they've had their actual hands on the actual type of actual camera that was used by the actual astronauts on the actual moon, actually.... 

[JayUtah]

Honestly, some people, coming on here claiming to be some sort of expert just because they've had their actual hands on the actual type of actual camera that was used by the actual astronauts on the actual moon, actually.... 

Okay, maybe that's overkill 

All seriousness aside, anyone who has access to a camera with a 45° field of view lens can test their own skill at this. My cell phone camera easily zooms out to this. If you want to simulate the bulk of the Apollo cameras, tape your phone to the front of a box and hold it at chest level.