Author Topic: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives  (Read 1735 times)

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2025, 12:34:00 PM »
On doing some more research, I htink I need to correct my earlier criticism of Jarrah's claim about how lunar orbiter images were produced after transmission to Earth.

The example I showed was effectively what the the magnetic data tapes contain, and these were produced in parallel with the actual images.

The 35mm films themselves were produced by recording from a kinescope, which you could say is filming from a TV screen. More info in here (page 18)

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19670012120/downloads/19670012120.pdf

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2025, 04:34:24 AM »
So, while it was annoying me that I got something wrong I carried on investigating the Lunar Orbiter photographic subsystem, as it is something that the ADs, and others, do bring up as it is a pressurised film system, and therefore all photography requires pressure to protect the film.

I found this document:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19680071016/downloads/19680071016.pdf

which covers every aspect of what is an incredibly complex piece of engineering by anyone's standards.

The key takeaway from the document is: At no point does it claim that the pressure vessel used to maintain between 1.0 and 1.9 psia of 99% nitrogen (with a tiny bit of oxygen thrown in) exists to protect the Kodak film.

It does, however, require pressure in other areas.

During photography, a small bellows draws the film towards the platen (the area where exposure occurs). In order for that to work, there needs to be a pressure differential. If the entire system is in a vacuum, there is nothing to create that differential.

The next step is the development process. During developing, a bimat strip loaded with chemicals is laminated to the film. That bimat film develops the actual photographic film into something that can be scanned. It's that bimat strip that needs maintaining in optimal humidy and temperature conditions. Temperature is largely controlled by radiating and conducting heat away through the orbiter structure. Humidity is regulated by potassum thiocynate crystals, which deal with the moisture produced by the bimat film during development.

This is the entirety of what it says about pressure:

"2.2.9.3 Pressure. The environmental gas in the [photographic subsystem] pressure shell is made up of 99 percent nitrogen and a total of I percent oxygen and other gases. Oxygen must be below 1 percent by volume to prevent loss of potency in the Bimat. Prior to launch, the nitrogen in the pressure shell is maintained at 1.9 psi above atmospheric pressure to prevent air leakage into the shell. This pressure differential is maintained throughout the launch phase by a relief valve which operates as the external pressure decreases.

During the photographic mission, pressure within the shell is maintained above 1.0 psia by nitrogen supplied from a pressurized bottle. This supply will allow for leakage equivalent to three pressure shell volumes of 1.0 psia at 70F. The lover pressure limit of 1.0 psia is required to keep the boiling point temperature of water above the expected temperatures of materials requiring moisture such as the Bimat film and the humidity control pads."


So, nothing to do with protecting the film, everything to do with protecting the Bimat strips and the developing of the film. To link back to the original topic, Corona systems that did not develop film did not need such protection.

As for radiation, the document has this to say:

"It is expected that the amounts of radiation received from the Van Allen belts and from the galactlc-cosmlc sources will have little or no effect on the photographic mission."

It summarises the characteristics of the film and why it is radiation resistant (I don't pretend to be an expert in that subject, so won't comment on it), and notes that the structure of the oribter also acts as a shield, specifically mentioning the film container. The risk from solar flares is much greater, and it calculates that there is a 43% probablility of a signifcant one happening over the entire program, which is pretty much in the "might happen, might not" area. If one was to occur, the idea was to orient the craft so that the more of the structure would be in the way.

Long story short: if you use the right film, and plan ahead, vacuum and radiation are not issues when using photographic film in space.

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2025, 06:33:27 PM »
Except you're missing the important part; since the documents DON'T say that the pressurisation WASN'T to protect the film, then this means that the pressurisation WAS to protect the film, and no other uses matter.

You just gotta learn to read between the lines, and ignore all that pesky context stuff. That's how it works, right?  :)

Gotta love the original LO, someone wanted pictures of the lunar surface, and instead of trying to figure a way of sending film back (with all those risks instead), they just sent a '1 hour photo lab' up to the moon instead and 'developed' in location. Early space flight really did require some out of the box thinking.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2025, 02:24:00 AM »
It was early days in the space program, and the 'Department for heading off conspiracy theory morons" wasn't fully up and running.

The ADs live stream has more stuff on this subject, but it's hard to tease out the details in amongst all the whining about how popular McKeegan's channel is, and the various passive aggressive ad homs and misrepresentations used. At one point his sitting there with his dog is seen as some sort of clue that he's a NASA stooge.

They also claim that he responded to their demands to appear on a live stream by saying he "doesn't deal with liars". As best I can tell he doesn't actually say that. Given that they were commenting on a video about how they lie about McKeegan, the weight of irony must be crushing.

They start waffling on about the Hexagon satellite, so here goes:

This document: https://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/histories/1.pdf

goes into mind-numbing detail about this beast of a satellite (honestly, it's HUGE!). I've skimmed through it and yes by golly the film system in it was pressurised.

However, comparing this with Corona satellites is like comparing apples and oranges. Transferring that comparison to Apollo photography is like comparing apples to elephants.

The Hexagon system was massively complex - the twin film path from its forward and rear facing cameras (designed for stereo photography) passed through an incredibly long and twisting set of rollers to get the 7" wide (that's right, 7"!) EK 4404 film from its storage cannister to the film buckets.

The system designers found that the SO film used in other systems didn't like the set up because of the fine grain. After much testing (including in vacuum chambers), they elected to go for pressurisation because outgassing of the film created instability in the film path - it tended to hover over the platens and move around over layers of water vapour. The wide film also tended to curl, so pressure enabled to them to keep it clamped. Static build up ffrom the many rollers was also an issue. Again, pressure isn't being used to mantain the integrity of the film, but the photographic process. It even says this about outgassing:

"photographic properties of the film were negligibly affected by moisture content"

So no, you can't point at the Hexagon system and say that it's an equivalent comparison to Apollo cameras.

Jarrah's contribution to the 'discussion' was to show a screenshot of him emailing Kodak for some of the SO film used in Apollo and Lunar Orbiter. Let's hope he holds his breath while he waits.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2025, 02:26:19 AM by onebigmonkey »

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2025, 09:48:19 AM »
I'm sort of kicking myself over this because when our museum got its U-2 and we unshipped the cameras, there was a some film still left inside (tattered and completely exposed). I didn't think at the time to ask for a sample of it. I know the cameras have gone to an outside company for restoration but I don't know what happened to the film. It probably just got thrown out.  >:(
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2025, 12:47:45 PM »
Kudos to McKeegan, he did actually turn up on their live stream, and found himself ambushed by stupid questions that were nothing to do with the nominal subject at hand (eg the alleged existence of two Apollo 13 capsules, which is a lie).

Another satellite system reared its head, namely Gambit, and Jarrah didn't know whether it used a pressurised system or not.

Let me help you there Jarrah: it did not. This document

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA606622.pdf

Outlines how the Gambit system was originally planned to be pressurised, and that such was the level of secrecy over the various projects the Gambit developers were unaware that the unpressurised systems in Corona were a thing. In the end, changes to the recovery program that would have been needed for the much heavier pressurised system, and eventual oversight of the project by people who knew that Corona existed,  that sent them down an unpressurised path.

In other interesting development, the detectives seem to be declaring that images of Earth are indeed genuine,  but have somehow been spliced into magazines with Apollo astronauts on the surface in some studio somewhere.

They're running out of straws to clutch at.

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2025, 07:28:48 PM »
In other interesting development, the detectives seem to be declaring that images of Earth are indeed genuine,  but have somehow been spliced into magazines with Apollo astronauts on the surface in some studio somewhere.

They're running out of straws to clutch at.

Isn't that 'Rasa's' idea that the SIV-B went to the moon and took the photos of the Earth and moon from various 'half-way' points, along with all the photos of the moon from lunar orbit?

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Corona and Keyhole satellite imagery and the Apollo Detectives
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2025, 02:28:44 AM »
Something along those lines, but the film somehow still managed to make it through the VAB and vacuum of space that way. There are countless photos from the spacecraft where people are visible and the cameras are obviously hand held. The 16mm and TV footage is also there, and lunar details recorded in surface photos aren't there in the lunar orbiter photos. Jarrah has an aulis article where he supposedly demonstrates that those details are there, but in this series of youtube ones also admits that the originals weren't as clear ad the modern ones, and it's the modern ones that used in my comparisons that show they weren't.

It's a trend now with the more informed hoax proponents: concede that some arguments are stupid and some of the evidence is genuine, but it merely adds more layers of complexity in mixing and matching what they believe that just doesn't help them. They isolate fragments of the mission snd say 'this bit is false', but constructing a coherent and logically consistent timeliness from those is impossible.

The Saturn V was underpowered, but got people to orbit, where they stayed, and launched an S-IVB, which was somehow filmed from the CSM after TLI (as well as on TV) by those same people. The unmanned vehicle then took photos which were developed and spliced into other imagery by person or persons unknown somewhere at some point after retrieving the film from a different vehicle that no-one noticed - presumably distracted by the actual CM splashdown.

The number of hoax participants increases massively in their scheme of things, making secrecy and success far less likely.

Offline onebigmonkey

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So the ADs have produced a response video to McKeegan's (which they make clear was recorded before his appearance on their live stream).

It is no response at all. Yet again they completely misrepresent what Dave has been saying, invent all manner of strawman arguments and show basic lack of research and understanding. They take offence that Dave McKeegan called them liars but are presenting that as being about their 'experiment'. It is not. McKeegan stated that they were misrepresenting the results of their 'experiment' by not showing consistent views of the film they used. He called them liars because they lied about McKeegan specifically - claiming he had not discussed a specific topic when he had, and they knew he had because they referenced a video in which he discussed it. Just like they lied about him refusing to come on livestreams because they lie. He didn't say that, and he actually turned up!

They repeat the claim that systems were pressurised to protect the film, when in it was to protect the photographic process, and don't seem to want try and establish even the most basic facts about the Corona image that they initially discussed. They insist that the image is damaged when it is not, it's film grain. They've made no effort to try and obtain the images to see for themselves.

It's sad that people fall for this BS.

Offline TimberWolfAu

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and they knew he had because they referenced a video in which he discussed it.

Not the first time they've done that to McKeegan. My favourite was when they were crowing that McKeegan had taken down a video about them, showing a listing of McKeegan's video, and the one they were crowing about was on screen, clear as day.