Plans beyond Apollo 17

[ka9q]

I haven't heard of any technical reasons why Orion could not have worked as advertised. But the environmental damage would be more than unacceptable.

Orion could only begin to approach being acceptable if it were started well outside the earth's magnetosphere.

[raven]

I haven't heard of any technical reasons why Orion could not have worked as advertised. But the environmental damage would be more than unacceptable.

Orion could only begin to approach being acceptable if it were started well outside the earth's magnetosphere.

That's just it. We, as in humanity, were testing nukes in the atmosphere at that time, some over 10 megatons, and one 50 megatons!
Still not a great idea, but perhaps not unacceptably so, especially if the choice was 'leave the planet or all die'.

[ka9q]

Orion would explode hundreds of nukes not only in the atmosphere, but also in the magnetosphere. Several early nuclear tests were conducted there as well, but before we'd invested huge sums of money on a very large number of earth-orbiting satellites on which we've become very dependent.

I do wonder what the net effect would be on the orbital debris problem. The radiation pressure pulse from each exoatmospheric detonation would probably help clear out much of the smaller nearby debris, but it would also create a lot of new debris out of currently intact satellites and rocket stages over a much wider area...

[smartcooky]

I haven't heard of any technical reasons why Orion could not have worked as advertised. But the environmental damage would be more than unacceptable.

Orion could only begin to approach being acceptable if it were started well outside the earth's magnetosphere.

That's just it. We, as in humanity, were testing nukes in the atmosphere at that time, some over 10 megatons, and one 50 megatons!
Still not a great idea, but perhaps not unacceptably so, especially if the choice was 'leave the planet or all die'.

Have you ever read the short story "Silly Asses" by Isaac Asimov?

If not, I post it here for your (and anyone else's) entertainment. Its so short, it will fit in one post....

SILLY ASSES

by Issac Asimov
1957 Columbia Publications, Inc.

Naron of the long-lived Rigellian race was the fourth of his line to keep the galactic records.

He had a large book which contained the list of the numerous races throughout the galaxies that had developed intelligence, and the much smaller book that listed those races that had reached maturity and had qualified for the Galactic Federation. In the first book, a number of those listed were crossed out; those that, for one reason or another, had failed. Misfortune, biochemical or biophysical shortcomings, social maladjustment took their toll.

In the smaller book, however, no member listed had yet blanked out.

And now Naron, large and incredibly ancient, looked up as a messenger approached.

"Naron", said the messenger. "Great One!"

"Well, well, what is it? Less ceremony."

"Another group of organisms has attained maturity."

"Excellent. Excellent. They are coming up quickly now. Scarcely a year passes without a new one. And who are these?"

The messenger gave the code number of the galaxy and the coordinates of the world within it.

"Ah, yes," said Naron. "I know the world." And in flowing script he noted it in the first book and transferred its name into the second, using, as was customary, the name by which the planet was known to the largest fraction of its populace. He wrote: Earth.

He said, "These new creatures have set a record. No other group has passed from intelligence to maturity so quickly. No mistake, I hope."

"None, sir," said the messenger.

"They have attained to thermonuclear power, have they?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well, thats the criterion." Naron chuckled. "And soon their ships will probe out and contact the Federation."

"Actually, Great One," said the messenger, reluctantly, "the Observers tell us they have not yet penetrated space."

Naron was astonished. "Not at all? Not even a space station?"

"Not yet, sir."

"But if they have thermonuclear power, where do they conduct the tests and detonations?"

"On their own planet, sir."

Naron rose to his full twenty feet of height and thundered, "On their own planet?"

"Yes, sir."

Slowly Naron drew out his stylus and passed a line through the latest addition in the small book. It was an unprecedented act, but, then, Naron was very wise and could see the inevitable as well as anyone in the galaxy.

"Silly asses," he muttered.

[Zakalwe]

Have you ever read the short story "Silly Asses" by Isaac Asimov?

Brilliant! 

You can't beat a bit of Asimov every now and then!

[raven]

Funny that the aliens would have donkeys. . . *completely missing the point*

[cjameshuff]

Orion would explode hundreds of nukes not only in the atmosphere, but also in the magnetosphere. Several early nuclear tests were conducted there as well, but before we'd invested huge sums of money on a very large number of earth-orbiting satellites on which we've become very dependent.

The propulsion charges would be a lot smaller than the high altitude detonations that caused EMP damage, and designed specifically to produce a highly directional, relatively high-mass and low-energy jet of plasma aimed at the pusher plate. The EMP effect is also highly sensitive to altitude, and firing rate could be decreased or even halted entirely while traveling through the most problematic regions.

It's not something that we'd want to use regularly, but with the sheer amount of payload available, a single launch could put up enough equipment to establish extensive orbital infrastructure, greatly reducing the mass that would need to be launched subsequently (whether on Orions or on conventional launchers). Being able to produce propellant, structural components, and photovoltaics from orbital or lunar resources would make solar power satellites actually practical, which could then replace fossil fuel power. Refueling and reusable orbital tugs would greatly reduce the size of the rockets required to deliver a given payload...just refueling roughly halves the required size. In addition, many launches would be reduced to specialized low-mass components that can't be fabricated in orbit, and orbital transport and deployment infrastructure would greatly simplify the satellites themselves.

So it's not so obvious. It's not justifiable for a single-use payload (apart from some exceptional circumstance such as preventing a large asteroid impact, predictable long in advance) or for regular use, but the first Orion payload could provide a substantial environmental and economic benefit to offset the launch. A second launch would provide far less benefit, however, and the third even less...establishing infrastructure that immediately renders the launch system obsolete is about the only use I can see for ground-launched Orions.

[ka9q]

The propulsion charges would be a lot smaller than the high altitude detonations that caused EMP damage

I wasn't even really thinking so much about the EMP, but the injection of huge amounts of fission products and their beta particles into the magnetosphere, and what that would do to existing spacecraft.

Being able to produce propellant, structural components, and photovoltaics from orbital or lunar resources would make solar power satellites actually practical, which could then replace fossil fuel power.

I'd think ordinary terrestrial nuclear power would be highly preferable.

[cjameshuff]

I'd think ordinary terrestrial nuclear power would be highly preferable.

As a solution specifically to the problem of power production and reduction of CO2 production, certainly. And with the notable advantage that we could completely replace fossil fuel power plants essentially as soon as we decide to do so, once we get people to quit stirring up fear of anything nuclear in a grab for political power. Solar power satellites were just one example of a way to offset the environmental costs of the launch, not the primary purpose of the launch (which is essentially to establish infrastructure to make large launchers unnecessary).

[gtvc]

There is a Blog about the Apollo program into the eighties with missions and programs that never happen http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/09/what-is-beyond-apollo-2/

[Count Zero]

Time to re-re-re-re-re-re-read "Footfall"...

[Glom]

Time to re-re-re-re-re-re-read "Footfall"...

Holy carbonate tracking!

Are those orbiters actually expected to return to Earth?

[Noldi400]

Are those orbiters actually expected to return to Earth?

Not really. The battle they were going to be engaged in was a win-or-die proposition. If they won, they would require the defeated enemy to provide transport back to Earth.

[Tedward]

Got that on audio, not sure I could have hacked it in paper form but made it to the end.

Interesting premiss though.