Author Topic: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?  (Read 1098820 times)

Offline nomuse

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1440 on: April 02, 2013, 02:04:19 PM »
Mph.  That sort of thing is more a kind of distributed authority.  Searching for a term here.

When you have a single named geologist making a statement about an Apollo sample (or even several Apollo samples), there is opening for numerous questions; is she being mis-quoted?  Is she under the influence?  Is it April 1st?  Is she honest and well-skilled but made a specific mistake in this specific case?

The more general question would be, "Do her views concur with the general consensus among geologist?"  And for that, one has to know other geologists, or know the field in general.

But the argument, "Do geologists (as a class) believe these samples are from the Moon?" removes all of these.  Instead of checking to see if specific statements are in accord, you are asking if it is reasonable to believe a field contains sufficient internal checks and balances to keep itself honest.

I think of a gauge.  Assuming I didn't buy some sort of Chinese knock-off, what I have purchased includes the assumption that the company that built it calibrated it according to a standard, and that standard is maintained by an organization that thinks about such standards and works to make them accurate and useful.  Of course the one specific gauge I am holding might be out of trim.  If what I am measuring is critical, I need to measure the gauge against some other standard first.  But as a working assumption, if I pull a random one out of a random box, it is probably not telling me complete fiction about what I am trying to measure.  And the reason I can believe this has little to do with the antecedents of that specific tool, but the environment that causes precision gauges to come to exist.

So, "Jay, who claims to be an engineer, says..." is not strong.  "Jay, who claims to speak for engineers, claims other engineers agree," is not strong.  But, "Jay, who makes no claims, points out that engineers as a class would have raised holy hell," is a strong statement.



(And of course I can't leave it there.  I've run into a number of hoaxies and other conspiracy believers who don't accept the idea of a scientific or technical field.  To them, it is all individuals doing as little as possible, concerned only with keeping their jobs and keeping their heads down, and who do nothing but parrot whatever the official word is.  The idea of the constant policing and, yes, sniping that goes on in the sciences to keep them basically honest, the complexities of certification and classification and licensing and professional bodies that make a sort of equivalent in the technical fields, heck, the idea of the individual scientist or engineer as active and interested, is entirely foreign to them.  It doesn't appear to match their personal work experience, so they discard it.)

Offline geo7863

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1441 on: April 02, 2013, 04:05:47 PM »
Well, for me at least, a great many things that we accept as "facts" are dependent upon someone else's authority.

Moon rocks, for example. I accept as fact that the materials so labeled are indeed samples taken from the lunar surface. I cannot make that statement from my own knowledge, however; I accept the personal testimony of the astronauts who collected them, and the collective expertise of the geologists who have examined them.

Hell, all of my rudimentary knowledge of astrodynamics and orbital mechanics is authority based. I accept the principles I've learned because the engineers - like Jay - who have verified them empirically vouch for them and they are consistent with the world as I have observed it.

IMHO, when you get right down to it, pretty much everything we laypersons know about the Apollo missions is what we are told by people who are putative experts in the appropriate fields.

And that for me, as a layman, is how I see it. But what I dont get, talking Specifically about Anders Bjorkmann, who lets face it is the reason behind this thread, is how a trained 'Engineer' (I have read here that someone has verified that his MSc is genuine) can deny or question something that even I as a layman can see to be true/practicable.

e.g the principles of thrust (am I right here?) he questions how the command module can turn around in space and dock with the LM, or how the shuttle can make an approach in one attitude and then turn around to enter the atmosphere in another attitude. Surely as a Marine architect/Engineer he must have seen ships being 'nudged' around by tugboats..to me the principle is the same even if the mechanics aren't.

And as an Engineer he must have been fascinated by the Harrier jump jet (to some degree at least seeing as it was developed whilst he was a young man who was interested in an Engineering career), which uses 'puffer jets' to change directions of yaw and pitch (and to a degree roll I beleive) in the hovering state. You definitely dont need to be a rocket scientist to see how that can be utlised on a space craft...regardless of your main Engineering discipline.

Also for a Marine Engineer to state that a sea-going vessel moves in 3 dimensions; which obviously it does, but not  under its own power in all 3 dimensions, when he knows that the subject matter is a craft moving in 3 dimensions under its own power. What is he trying to prove? because it definitely isn't his expertise in Marine engineering let alone any expertise in aerospace engineering!

I can forgive people like Jarrah White, Bill Kaysing, Bart Sibrel and Marcus Allen....because they dont know any better....but a trained Engineer should know better regardless of his field of speciality!

Offline Noldi400

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1442 on: April 02, 2013, 09:09:02 PM »
(And of course I can't leave it there.  I've run into a number of hoaxies and other conspiracy believers who don't accept the idea of a scientific or technical field.  To them, it is all individuals doing as little as possible, concerned only with keeping their jobs and keeping their heads down, and who do nothing but parrot whatever the official word is.  The idea of the constant policing and, yes, sniping that goes on in the sciences to keep them basically honest, the complexities of certification and classification and licensing and professional bodies that make a sort of equivalent in the technical fields, heck, the idea of the individual scientist or engineer as active and interested, is entirely foreign to them.  It doesn't appear to match their personal work experience, so they discard it.)
This. The usual form I see is "All those scientists and engineers are just parroting what they were told in school, by their instructors who are just parroting what THEY were told in school."

Hard to see how any new ideas ever come about, huh?

When I pointed out that the reason you see very few people among HBs who have an advanced degree is simply that by the time a person puts in the time and study to acquire an advanced degree, they know enough to recognize it as nonsense, one YouTuber responded:

CT2507:

haha... and there comes the education card! :))

i feel almost sorry for u. cause thats kinda like the last card for u guys isnt it. u trust so blindly that an education will give u all the certainty u will ever need that u are ready to put your heads on the block for it!... and go to sleep ..lol

u dont realise that sleep is built into all modern educations. the more specialized u are in one field, the more u a blind towards others.

i suggest u un-educate yourself and look with honesty.


Shur talks purty, don't he?


 
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Peter B

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1443 on: April 02, 2013, 11:26:03 PM »
...what I dont get, talking Specifically about Anders Bjorkmann, who lets face it is the reason behind this thread, is how a trained 'Engineer' (I have read here that someone has verified that his MSc is genuine) can deny or question something that even I as a layman can see to be true/practicable.

e.g the principles of thrust (am I right here?) he questions how the command module can turn around in space and dock with the LM, or how the shuttle can make an approach in one attitude and then turn around to enter the atmosphere in another attitude. Surely as a Marine architect/Engineer he must have seen ships being 'nudged' around by tugboats..to me the principle is the same even if the mechanics aren't.

And as an Engineer he must have been fascinated by the Harrier jump jet (to some degree at least seeing as it was developed whilst he was a young man who was interested in an Engineering career), which uses 'puffer jets' to change directions of yaw and pitch (and to a degree roll I beleive) in the hovering state. You definitely dont need to be a rocket scientist to see how that can be utlised on a space craft...regardless of your main Engineering discipline.

Also for a Marine Engineer to state that a sea-going vessel moves in 3 dimensions; which obviously it does, but not  under its own power in all 3 dimensions, when he knows that the subject matter is a craft moving in 3 dimensions under its own power. What is he trying to prove? because it definitely isn't his expertise in Marine engineering let alone any expertise in aerospace engineering!

I can forgive people like Jarrah White, Bill Kaysing, Bart Sibrel and Marcus Allen....because they dont know any better....but a trained Engineer should know better regardless of his field of speciality!

I see that Mr Bjorkman has again updated his space travel page...

Anyway, here's a quote which I think illustrates the point:
Quote
The CSM disconnected from the third stage and the Lunar Module, LM, stored there, rotated or flipped 180° and then connected to the top of the LM! Quite impressive! Imagine doing this at 11 200 m/s speed.

The italics above are mine, to highlight what I just don't get - what is so significant about conducting the maneuver at such a high speed relative to the Earth? What matters is the relative speed of the CSM and the S-IVB, and here we're talking about less than 1 metre per second. It's almost as though he's comparing it to a battleship pulling up alongside an aircraft carrier and the two ships being lashed together, while travelling at 30 knots.

It's not as though he imagines the spacecraft shuddering under the impact of interplanetary ether, or something like that. Earlier on the page he says:
Quote
Space ships operate in space that offers no resistance until you enter a planet's atmosphere. Only gravity forces of the Sun, planets and moons affect vehicles in space.

He also seems to understand that rocket engines fire for only limited periods of time. Shortly before the first quote above, he talks about the second burn of the S-IVB lasting for 349 seconds.

So, according to Mr Bjorkman, once the engine has stopped firing, the spacecraft is only being influenced by gravity. Yet suddenly Transposition and Docking is worthy of comment on the basis of the speed the stack is travelling away from the Earth.

Likewise, there are the throwaway comments of bizarre ignorance, like the one about the Launch Escape Tower:
Quote
Three minutes later the launch escape three motors system on top the CM was jettisoned ... one way or another. Why it was fitted in the first place is not clear.

Again, the italics are mine. I remember as a child wondering why the LET was jettisoned after the first stage was discarded, and I could never find any information about it. I knew why it was present, which was what made me wonder what made it subsequently unnecessary. But these days that information is fairly easy to find, and it makes sense in the context of weight restrictions and second stage thrust.

Drawing attention to your ignorance about something that's fairly easy to ascertain doesn't help your intended image as a competent engineer...
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Offline Glom

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1444 on: April 03, 2013, 12:58:51 AM »
At least he knows how TD&E was done now even if he remains incredulous.

We had to tell him about it.

Offline nomuse

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1445 on: April 03, 2013, 03:24:51 AM »
Who was it who expressed astonishment at the ability of the astronauts to clamber between the LM and CM through the latter's heat shield?  Was that a Sibrel special? 

Confusion about the orientation of the craft seems endemic among the hoaxies.

Offline Peter B

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1446 on: April 03, 2013, 05:43:48 AM »
Who was it who expressed astonishment at the ability of the astronauts to clamber between the LM and CM through the latter's heat shield?  Was that a Sibrel special?
It wasn't him. It was one of the regular HBs on (IIRC) the old BA or BAUT forum.

Quote
Confusion about the orientation of the craft seems endemic among the hoaxies.

Yes, and for no apparently good reason, either. Here's another example from Mr Bjorkman:
Quote
The SM engine was obstructed by the lunar module (LM) fitted below it at departure.

Well, yes, but so what? The second stage engines of the Saturn V were obstructed by the first stage. That's how staged rockets work.

And, speaking of the Saturn V...
Quote
...some people wonder if they ever existed ... or if they were just one empty mock up with some jet engines at bottom and trick film!

It'd have to be pretty spectacular trick film to trick the thousands of people who watched Saturn V launches live. And I doubt jet engines could produce the physical effects described.

Seriously, these are absurd displays of ignorance.
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Offline BazBear

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1447 on: April 03, 2013, 07:35:00 AM »
Who was it who expressed astonishment at the ability of the astronauts to clamber between the LM and CM through the latter's heat shield?  Was that a Sibrel special? 

Confusion about the orientation of the craft seems endemic among the hoaxies.
I agree with Peter B., I'm almost certain that wasn't a Sibrel claim.

The funny thing is if the USAF had ever got their Manned Orbiting Laboratory operational, the astronauts actually would have entered the lab through a hatch that went through their modified Gemini B spacecraft's heat shield.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1448 on: April 03, 2013, 09:39:27 AM »
The funny thing is if the USAF had ever got their Manned Orbiting Laboratory operational, the astronauts actually would have entered the lab through a hatch that went through their modified Gemini B spacecraft's heat shield.
Strictly speaking, the entire Apollo CM was covered with a phenolic heatshield (although I'm not sure about the outside surface of the forward hatch). It was just considerably thicker on the bottom of the capsule that was designed to face forward during re-entry.

I have pointed this out several times in the context of discussions about radiation shielding and CT complaints about aluminum as shielding. Phenolic resin, like all plastics, contains a considerable amount of hydrogen that is especially effective at stopping energetic charged particles without generating a lot of high energy Bremsstralung x-ray photons.


Offline Echnaton

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1449 on: April 03, 2013, 10:29:22 AM »
Anyway, here's a quote which I think illustrates the point:
Quote
The CSM disconnected from the third stage and the Lunar Module, LM, stored there, rotated or flipped 180° and then connected to the top of the LM! Quite impressive! Imagine doing this at 11 200 m/s speed.

The italics above are mine, to highlight what I just don't get - what is so significant about conducting the maneuver at such a high speed relative to the Earth? What matters is the relative speed of the CSM and the S-IVB, and here we're talking about less than 1 metre per second. It's almost as though he's comparing it to a battleship pulling up alongside an aircraft carrier and the two ships being lashed together, while travelling at 30 knots.

OMG I parked my truck this morning.  With an Earth rotational speed of ~1000 mph at the equator and my parking spot at ~30 degrees north, that means I was going east at ~866 MPH.  Good thing my parking spot faces north!  ;)   Lets not even get into the speed of the earth around the sun, parking at that speed must be impossible.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1450 on: April 03, 2013, 10:31:36 AM »
Who was it who expressed astonishment at the ability of the astronauts to clamber between the LM and CM through the latter's heat shield?  Was that a Sibrel special? 

Confusion about the orientation of the craft seems endemic among the hoaxies.
I agree with Peter B., I'm almost certain that wasn't a Sibrel claim.

It sounds a lot like Sam Colby's notorious claim that the astronauts could not have moved from the CM to the SM because the heat shield was in the way. An accurate assessment, but not as suspicious as he, in his ignorance, makes it out to be....
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline geo7863

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1451 on: April 03, 2013, 12:05:00 PM »
Anyway, here's a quote which I think illustrates the point:
Quote
The CSM disconnected from the third stage and the Lunar Module, LM, stored there, rotated or flipped 180° and then connected to the top of the LM! Quite impressive! Imagine doing this at 11 200 m/s speed.

The italics above are mine, to highlight what I just don't get - what is so significant about conducting the maneuver at such a high speed relative to the Earth? What matters is the relative speed of the CSM and the S-IVB, and here we're talking about less than 1 metre per second. It's almost as though he's comparing it to a battleship pulling up alongside an aircraft carrier and the two ships being lashed together, while travelling at 30 knots.

OMG I parked my truck this morning.  With an Earth rotational speed of ~1000 mph at the equator and my parking spot at ~30 degrees north, that means I was going east at ~866 MPH.  Good thing my parking spot faces north!  ;)   Lets not even get into the speed of the earth around the sun, parking at that speed must be impossible.

So why does it take so long to drive from California to New York? surely all you need to do would be to release the handbrake and let the earths rotation do the rest......mind you driving back would be a real bugger of a journey! ;D

Offline Glom

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1452 on: April 03, 2013, 01:18:02 PM »
Just go the long way round.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1453 on: April 03, 2013, 01:45:21 PM »
Who was it who expressed astonishment at the ability of the astronauts to clamber between the LM and CM through the latter's heat shield?  Was that a Sibrel special?

No, that was Sam Colby (NASAScam).  He has his own particular brand of ignorance and dishonesty.
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Offline Daggerstab

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1454 on: April 16, 2013, 08:25:19 AM »
After the visit by Believer, I decided to have a look at what Anders "I can't stop changing my website" Björkman has been up to. By some coincidence, according to my archive, the last time I've saved a snapshot of his page was exactly a month ago.

Enumerating all the changes would be boring, so here's just the more amusing ones:

Apparently, now this forum is run by NASA and SpaceX! :D :D :D :D He also makes an issue about the number of posts in this thread, never mind that most of them were answers to his posts.
Quote
On March 30, 2013 the Apollo11hoaxster.net thread has > 1410 posts (96 pages) about The Heiwa Challenge and none has managed to produce any evidence that space travel is even possible ... or safe. It seems ex-SpaceX clowns are trying to explain why their launch vehicles fizzled. So my money is still in the bank.
Yeah, right. ::) Even if it exists, it's a fraction of SpaceX's capital, who, by the way, do launch rockets and retrieve spacecraft from orbit. Jealous much, Björkman? :p And the domain is "apollohoax.net". Your repeated dishonesty and/or incompetence has been noted.

I also LOLed at this:
Quote
controlled by a robot or computer
The robot part has been added later. I wonder what he imagines to be the difference. :D

Speaking of additions, the page title has been changed to "Human space travel is not possible! and unsafe". :D As opposed to impossible and safe? :D

Also, Björkman has apparently developed some kind of anal fixation, as his newest word for "astronaut" is "asstrohole", replacing some of the existing slurs, and at least in one instance, the word "people" - yes, Björkman is the kind of guy who would notice that he's missed an opportunity to call someone names, and go back and "fix" it. And by "fixing" it I mean that he decided to drop the pretences and the middle syllable - the new sentence talks about "the three (crazy?) assholes aboard". There's also a "cdesign proponentsists"-style transitional form: in another place, Björkman calls Armstrong an "asstronuthole". ::)

I'm increasing tempted to finish every post of mine in this thread with a video of the Swedish Chef ("Björk! Björk! Björk!"), but doing it would be disrespectful. To the Chef. :(