Author Topic: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?  (Read 376799 times)

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #225 on: March 21, 2013, 04:18:01 AM »
Seriously? As an engineer who has done research into this area you dispute that claim?

This is quite unbelievable.

Much engineering and science is to those who haven't spent years of their life studying it. Jay has. What have you done?

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On the moon if you hit a bump on one side will that side not rise up higher, and for longer, allowing for more rotation?

Again you offer comparison with no baseline.

What force is required by an impact on the front tyre to tip the vehicle to such an angle that it will roll, taking into account the effect of the vehicle's maximum possible speed, the deformation of the tyre that will be the first effect of any impact on the wheel, and the suspension system? You maintain it is easier to roll the rover on the Moon than on Earth. Have you done anything to show that it is even possible to roll a rover on Earth, given its characteristics? As I said before, it would be considered 'easier' for me to lift a ten ton truck on the Moon than on Earth, but that doesn't translate into making it any more possible for me to lift that truck on the Moon than on Earth.

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I know I would not drive such an unbalanced vehicle (3/4 the weight on one side) over such an uneven surface at 10 or 15kph here on earth, let alone the moon where the low traction and low gravity both work against you making it many times easier to roll.

What you would or would not do is irrelevant. 'On one side' is meaningless. Where is the weight in relation to the pivot point? What angle do you have to tip the vehicle to in order for it to roll? How could that be achieved? Where are your numbers?
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Offline Tedward

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #226 on: March 21, 2013, 04:27:35 AM »
The moon's a good neighbourhood.  You can leave your car out and not have to worry about it being stolen.

There was a photoshop of the rover up on bricks. Probably still on the net if you look for it. Quite funny.

I'll have a look.

Of course, if you have to call for a tow, it's going to take a while, and be really expensive :(

Quick search and I cannot find it, but it was on a forum with a suggestion that certain elements in society had made it to the moon. Not sure if it was that persons work or linked from the web.

Offline raven

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #227 on: March 21, 2013, 04:32:54 AM »
There was a photoshop of the rover up on bricks. Probably still on the net if you look for it. Quite funny.

I'll have a look.

Of course, if you have to call for a tow, it's going to take a while, and be really expensive :(
Indeed it was, even if you're only make it around the moon.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 04:34:39 AM by raven »

Offline Not Myself

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #228 on: March 21, 2013, 04:37:24 AM »
There was a photoshop of the rover up on bricks. Probably still on the net if you look for it. Quite funny.

I'll have a look.

Of course, if you have to call for a tow, it's going to take a while, and be really expensive :(
Indeed it was, even if you're only make it around the moon.

It's a bit hard to read, but is this for Apollo 13?
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Offline raven

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #229 on: March 21, 2013, 04:42:02 AM »
It's the best copy I can find at the moment, but, yes, this is for Apollo 13.

Offline Not Myself

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #230 on: March 21, 2013, 04:48:06 AM »
It's the best copy I can find at the moment, but, yes, this is for Apollo 13.

Did they collect?
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Offline raven

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #231 on: March 21, 2013, 05:24:36 AM »
It's the best copy I can find at the moment, but, yes, this is for Apollo 13.

Did they collect?
Sources say no. North American Aviation apparently refused because they didn't charge Grumman for ferrying the LM to the moon on Apollo 10, 11, and 12.

Offline Not Myself

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #232 on: March 21, 2013, 06:05:30 AM »
Sources say no. North American Aviation apparently refused because they didn't charge Grumman for ferrying the LM to the moon on Apollo 10, 11, and 12.

Yes, if the rate is fixed per km then NAA would be way ahead.

Of  course, NAA's component was a lot bigger, so maybe there should be some surcharge for that.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 06:08:59 AM by Not Myself »
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Offline DataCable

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #233 on: March 21, 2013, 06:40:03 AM »
So if the rollover threshold for a car is 1g on earth it is not 1/6g on the moon?
Please explain how to calculate "rollover threshold."

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On the moon if you hit a bump on one side will that side not rise up higher, and for longer, allowing for more rotation?
How much roll rotation is required for an LRV with only 1 driver to pass its tipping point?  Calculate this for roll in both directions.

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I know I would not drive such an unbalanced vehicle (3/4 the weight on one side)
Please calculate the center of mass of an LRV with only one driver.
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Offline armillary

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #234 on: March 21, 2013, 08:58:02 AM »
To amuse myself, I had a go at solving this particular problem of overturning the rover.
First, we need to decide how to quantify "how difficult" it is to overturn the rover, whether here or on the Moon.

One way is as described above - will a sharp turn at maximum speed impart enough torque to lift the wheels?
If the centre of gravity is located a distance y (vertical) and x(horizontal) from the inner wheel, and the turning radius is R, the vehicle will lift from the ground if v2/R * y > g * x. This should be simple to evaluate using no more than high-school math. Now, even if you get the outer wheels to lift, it would be very simple for the astronauts to correct - just turn the wheel the other way and the rover rights itself. Someone with more patience than me can calculate for how long you need to go at max speed and turn rate to flip the rover completely given the various scenarios. However, it's easy to see that the necessary speed to overturn is proportional to the square root of the gravity, so that it takes roughly 2.5 times as much speed to flip the rover on the Earth as on the Moon.

The other way has to do with hitting bumps on the surface - rocks etc. It would be difficult to model exactly how the force impacts the rover, but we can simplify by thinking in terms of stunts. One method often used in stunt filming is using ramps, so that a certain horizontal speed will impart a corresponding vertical speed. This means that on both Earth and the Moon, the same initial motion can be used - gravity does not impact this.[1]

To model exactly how the rover behaves here is unfortunately very difficult - the rover can be seen as a pendulum pivoting around the pair of wheels on the ground, but you quickly find yourself having to solve a nonlinear differential equation. However, we can sidestep this completely by simply asking ourselves how much rotational kinetic energy the rover needs to obtain an angle of 45° (at which points the wheels would start to crumple from the sideways load - the actual overturn angle is higher)

This turns out to be very simple. Rotational kinetic energy is simply Er = 1/2 I w2, and since the angular velocity is proportional to the horizontal speed when we hit the ramp, Er = 1/2 I C2 v2, where C depends on the exact geometry of the situation.
To find the moment of inertia, it needs to transposed to the axis we are using from the usual centre-of-gravity oriented one, so using the x and y from before and taking the angle b = atan(y/x), and radius r = sqrt(x2 + y2), Iwheel = ICoG + m * r2

For potential energy, we need the difference between the initial state with both wheels on the ground and the one with the wheels at 45 degrees angle: Ep = m * g * (r sin (b + 45°) - y) [2]

Summing up, the rover will crumple or flip if Er > Ep, or 1/2 I C2 v2 > m * g * (r sin (b + 45°) - y)

Now, there are a lot of factors in all this, but we're interested in comparative scenarios. Everything except g is the same, so again, the necessary velocity is proportional to the square root of the gravity, or 2.5 times more difficult on the Earth as on the Moon.

[1] In reality, the suspension would take up much of the impact, and on the Earth the springs would be compressed more by the gravity load, meaning they're more likely to behave nonlinearly. In other words, on the Earth the same bump would impart a greater force on the rover, but the difference is too small to matter in this equation.
[2] By definition, y = r sin b

Offline twik

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #235 on: March 21, 2013, 10:25:05 AM »
So if the rollover threshold for a car is 1g on earth it is not 1/6g on the moon?
Please explain how to calculate "rollover threshold."

Quote
On the moon if you hit a bump on one side will that side not rise up higher, and for longer, allowing for more rotation?
How much roll rotation is required for an LRV with only 1 driver to pass its tipping point?  Calculate this for roll in both directions.

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I know I would not drive such an unbalanced vehicle (3/4 the weight on one side)
Please calculate the center of mass of an LRV with only one driver.

I'm not sure anywho understands *why* it's necessary to do these calculations, when it's so easy to say, "let's assume it's 3-4 times as much as on Earth," with absolutely no reason to make that assumption.

S/he is also assuming that the drivers would not, for example, change speed when travelling over rougher terrain. In fact, I get the feeling s/he assumes they were going at the same general speed as a typical off-road racer.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #236 on: March 21, 2013, 10:31:34 AM »

Seriously? As an engineer who has done research into this area you dispute that claim?

This is quite unbelievable.

Yes, I'm an engineer.  Yes, I've studied this particular problem.  Yes, I dispute the claim that the LRV as designed would have had insufficient roll stability to be used as depicted (i.e., and therefore fake).

Your disbelief is irrelevant.  You have drawn an engineering conclusion but you have failed to present an engineering case or rationale.  I'm not sure how much longer you intend to bluff your way along.  I have asked you to present your case with appropriate rigor.  I have hinted to you at how that may be done.  I've computed one of the critical stability factors for you.  At this point I can only conclude that you have absolutely no interest in actually studying the matter or discovering the truth.

Arguments that the LRV may be less stable that some other vehicle are irrelevant.  Arguments that the Moon's lesser gravity necessarily creates unacceptable instability, regardless of a quantitative treatment, beg the question.

I have given you ample opportunity to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about.  While you can allude to some of the physical properties that pertain, your knowledge of them is scant and your competence with the entire problem of vehicle stability is negligible.  Hence I reject your conclusion.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #237 on: March 21, 2013, 10:49:07 AM »
Must--- resist--- Monty--- Python--- reference!

Why?  That's pretty much what I was thinking the whole time.
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Offline Chew

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #238 on: March 21, 2013, 10:54:17 AM »
Must--- resist--- Monty--- Python--- reference!

Why?  That's pretty much what I was thinking the whole time.

I was trying out a new word I learned: apophasis.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #239 on: March 21, 2013, 11:28:08 AM »
[1] In reality, the suspension would take up much of the impact, ...

Also in reality the suspension has to be accounted for in the canonical rollover (tripped or untripped) above.  Hence meaningful models are based on empirical measurements of a candidate vehicle's configuration when tilted statically to its critical roll angle.  Empirical testing always incorporates a tripping mechanism.  That compresses the suspension appropriately, and the force and angle measurements are taken from there.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams