Author Topic: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?  (Read 29262 times)

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 03:16:04 AM »
ETA1: I don't know how many of you saw the story which popped up shortly after Obama won the last election: a young woman, unhappy with the election result, announced on Twitter that she was moving to Australia because "their president is a Christian and actually supports what he says". So she managed to get a trifecta of wrong, which mightily amused a lot of Australians.

Actually she was wrong on FOUR counts

1. Australia doesn't have a President, it has a Prime Minister
2. "He" is actually a "She"
3. She is a self-confessed Atheist, not a Christian
4. "supports what (s)he says". Really? Julia "back-flip" Gillard?


What would you call that, a "quaddie" or a box-trifecta?
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Offline Kiwi

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 09:00:49 AM »
...But this argument doesn't explain Australia - like the USA we don't have a state church, but like northern Europeans we just aren't very religious. I suspect the explanation lies in the fact that in Australia and in northern European countries governments provide a generous social security system, thus greatly reducing a major reason churches exist - to provide charity.

Maybe it's just the general Australian culture, maybe it's the weather.  Or both.  As a famous Aussie surfer once said:
Quote
We may be descendants of white outcasts from England, but they threw us into a wonderful place in Australia.  They consigned us to heaven, and they stayed in hell!
 ― Midget Farrelly, “Nothing to Hide – The History of Swimwear” TV2 (New Zealand) 27 Sep 1996 8:30pm

« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 09:07:25 AM by Kiwi »
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Offline BazBear

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 04:05:27 PM »
My impression has always been that the USA tends to be more religious than most other "1st world western nations" due to the fact that many of our early immigrants left Europe for religious reasons, so that sort of more extreme piety that we still see today goes back to very early in our history. I'll admit that this is a somewhat simplistic explanation, but I really do believe that it's what set the early tone, and in many ways has led to what we see today.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 05:05:38 PM »
our early immigrants left Europe for religious reasons

At least one of my ancestors certainly did. 

We still have a carry over that associates religion with political allegiance.  I think it remains in part because we have never had a state religious institution to be opposed to.  We tend to associate religiousness in our candidates by their abilities to use the right code words and pay the due attention to dominant groups rather than by personal behavior.  But I guess that is true of pretty much all of politics. 
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 07:22:33 PM »
The history of our immigrants is a major part of the issue, certainly.  Now, not all of the early immigrants left for religious reasons; Jamestown was unabashedly a commercial enterprise with a thin gloss of religious sentiment.  However, several colonies were founded for specifically religious reasons.  (Let me stick in a recommendation for Sarah Vowell's The Wordy Shipmates, which is a pretty good description of the religious nature of the early New England colonies.)  Even when that reason was "because the colony next door is oppressing us," there was still sometimes the unmentioned "and we'd like to oppress other people instead." 

This is probably part of why few listings of Presidents by religion ever have the word "deist," even when it's probably the best description.  George Washington seems to have been a member of a church mostly because it was the socially correct thing to do at the time.  Some Baptist congregation, I forget where, published a statement saying that it was better to vote for Jefferson than Adams, because the atheist probably wouldn't oppress them, and the Episcopalian might.  Ben Franklin proposed (no one seems sure how seriously) that sessions of the Constitutional Convention begin with a prayer.  The proposal was literally weeks into the convention and was never actually voted on, in part because they figured it would make it look to outside observers as though they were so stuck they needed divine assistance to form a working government.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 07:23:20 PM »
But this argument doesn't explain Australia - like the USA we don't have a state church, but like northern Europeans we just aren't very religious.

Err, have you ever spent any length of time in South Australia; Adelaide in particular?
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Offline Peter B

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 12:47:09 AM »
But this argument doesn't explain Australia - like the USA we don't have a state church, but like northern Europeans we just aren't very religious.

Err, have you ever spent any length of time in South Australia; Adelaide in particular?
No doubting there are some areas more religious than others - SE Queensland would be another area of high attendance.

But even the Managing Director of the Australian Christian Lobby says only 19% of Australians go to church at least once a month (http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2013/05/24/3766988.htm). That seems to be a little under half the rate for Americans.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2013, 12:51:55 AM »
My impression has always been that the USA tends to be more religious than most other "1st world western nations" due to the fact that many of our early immigrants left Europe for religious reasons, so that sort of more extreme piety that we still see today goes back to very early in our history. I'll admit that this is a somewhat simplistic explanation, but I really do believe that it's what set the early tone, and in many ways has led to what we see today.
I'm sure I read somewhere, though (possibly Shermer) that the rate of church attendance has steadily increased since the Civil War, suggesting that any early piety decreased until that time - perhaps something following on from one of the Great Awakenings?
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2013, 01:41:42 AM »
I'm sure I read somewhere, though (possibly Shermer) that the rate of church attendance has steadily increased since the Civil War, suggesting that any early piety decreased until that time - perhaps something following on from one of the Great Awakenings?

The Third Great Awakening supposedly started not that long before the Civil War.  (I'm not as familiar with it as I am with the earlier ones; the class I took that would have covered it was covering a lot more to do with the politics of the era than the religion.)  I must admit curiosity as to how much those statistics take into account what my sister and I used to refer to as the "C and E Club"--people who only went to church for Christmas and Easter.  Does that count as church attendance?  To my mind, it shouldn't, but I bet a lot of the people claiming to attend church only do so on occasion.  I'm also aware that educational level tends to have an inverse correlation with church attendance, which skews my own perception of how common it is.  Most of my friends don't even consider themselves Christian, but most of my friends are college graduates.
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Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2013, 02:09:37 AM »
All such laws are unconstitutional.

Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961) was a United States Supreme Court case in which the court reaffirmed that the United States Constitution prohibits States and the Federal Government from requiring any kind of religious test for public office, in the specific case, as a notary public.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 11:34:55 AM »
So they reaffirmed that, for once, the words mean exactly what they say they do?
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Offline Chew

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 12:14:51 PM »
I had a YouTube debate with someone who was adamant that the US Constitution was based entirely on the 10 Commandments. When I pointed out to her several of those commandments expressly forbade the freedom to worship any god someone wanted all she did was repeat herself.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 12:39:54 PM »
Yeah, it's kind of obvious that people never had to read the Constitution going through school, or if they did, they didn't actually retain the information.  You can blame failure to understand that not all the Founding Fathers were more than marginally Christian at best on bad textbooks, but the words don't change based on your textbook.
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Offline qt

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2013, 01:40:38 PM »
Yeah, it's kind of obvious that people never had to read the Constitution going through school, or if they did, they didn't actually retain the information.  You can blame failure to understand that not all the Founding Fathers were more than marginally Christian at best on bad textbooks, but the words don't change based on your textbook.

When I lived in the US, I was amazed at some of the things that people claimed the constitution said, things that even I knew weren't true.

Then, somehow, I ended up on the mailing list of some political organisation (a bit pointless, since I couldn't vote), which sent me a paperback-bound copy of the constitution in the mail.  So I put it in the side pocket of my computer bag, which I carried with me pretty much everywhere.  When someone would claim "the constitution says X", I'd pull it out and ask them to show me.

We're still waiting for the first successful confirmation.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2013, 02:25:11 PM »
Hee.  As you might guess, when I say the Constitution says something, it's there--because usually what I'm pointing out is that the Constitution forbids religious tests to hold office or some such.  Or that there are essentially no requirements listed for the Supreme Court; the number of justices is set by law, not by the Constitution.  However, I also don't say that very often.
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