Author Topic: Apollo 13  (Read 206564 times)

Offline Peter B

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2013, 09:20:55 AM »
Everyone seems to agree that the Van Allen Belts were potentially dangerous to the astronauts. Therefore, all the Apollo missions must have taken this into account, i.e., the launches timed and the flight trajectories carefully plotted so the astronauts would not be 'dosed.'

I'll assume this is a given, from the above posts.

Therefore there surely are CONTEMPORANEOUS reports/accounts/papers/studies/documents proving this, or at least MENTIONING IT. Just to be sure you understand: when I say 'contemporaneous' I mean dated from the time of the missions, not some Youtube video or verbal claim from the 21st century.

I am saying, actually guaranteeing, that none of you can come up with the above, and for this reason: The Apollo missions were hoaxes.

So that's my 'proof': You cannot produce the stated evidence, which you surely could produce if the missions were done with the Van Allen Belt taken as a serious risk factor. (A risk factor that at least one of the astronauts was unaware of, i.e., Allan Bean.)
Of course, the problem with an affirmative position like that is that you now have to deal with all the evidence that Apollo was real. My own particular area of interest (to the groans of regulars here) is the rocks supposedly brought back by the Apollo missions.

Were they fake rocks? No, because geologists from around the world (including from countries with no love for the USA) have studied the rocks. The rocks have characteristics that mean they are definitely not from the Earth, like the evidence they formed in a low gravity vacuum, and that they've been subjected to micrometeor bombardment for millions of years.

Were they genuine rocks collected by unmanned missions? No, because we have photos of the rocks on location, often with astronauts in the photos. If those photos were taken on the Moon, there's evidence that astronauts were on the Moon. But if the photos were faked on Earth, how were the genuine rocks in those photos not contaminated by Earthly materials on the location where the photos were taken?

Plus, there was no unmanned technology at the time capable of picking up the sheer volume of material brought back from the Moon. Three Soviet unmanned sample return missions brought back enough material to fill a soup can. Six Apollo missions brought back roughly 1000 times as much.

The only logical explanation for ~370kg of Apollo rocks is that they were collected from the Moon by a dozen Moon walking astronauts.
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Offline allancw

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2013, 09:49:02 AM »
OK, so far no contemporaneous accounts of how the belts were to be avoided (just to remind you all of my request). By the way, the reason I guaranteed that you wouldn't find anything was because I spent a couple hours looking (I can imagine this sentence resulting in another barrage of irrelevant ad hominem crap). I had already read the sentence quoted in reply 88, in Wikipedia. As you all must know, the source of that info (from NASA) is a 'broken link' -- at the risk of precipitating still another barrage, this doesn't surprise me, given the 'loss' of the telemetry data (loss by erasure is even more ridiculous than misplacement), given the vital and irreplaceable data lost.

Likewise, I'd already examined the document recommended here:

https://sites.google.com/site/chewtansy/msfn/A11_MissionReport.pdf

A word scan for 'Van Allen' brought up only one hit, which said nothing about planning the trajectory (with radiation intensity in mind).

So, I wait. You all have expended many man-hours insulting me. Why not just find the document/report/whatever I ask for and be done with it? You have already stated that the mission trajectories were planned with the belts in mind. Surely you got this information somewhere...

Maybe one of you will surprise me.


Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2013, 10:06:30 AM »
By the way, the reason I guaranteed that you wouldn't find anything was because I spent a couple hours looking

A "couple of hours"?? Bear in mind that some of the folks on here have spent decades working in this field.

You do accept, of course, that just because your "couple of hours" didn't get you the result (let's ignore for this moment that you probably do not have the knowledge/skills to recognise the answer even if you did find it), that does not mean that it doesn't exist.


Likewise, I'd already examined the document recommended here:

https://sites.google.com/site/chewtansy/msfn/A11_MissionReport.pdf

A word scan for 'Van Allen' brought up only one hit, which said nothing about planning the trajectory (with radiation intensity in mind).

What's your qualifications and experience that would allow you to confirm or dismiss a spacecraft's trajectory?

Also, what qualifies you to dismiss, completely out of hand, the trajectory information contained on page 94 (as you were directed to here )?

You were also directed to a NASA Technical Note (here) which deals specifically with radiation protection. What is your expert analysis of this document? You DID read this document, didn't you?
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2013, 10:18:58 AM »
If you want to overview the trajectories then Bob Braeunig's page contains all you'll need to know:
http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/apollo11-TLI.htm

Have a look through that page and then let us know where the errors are. Or alternatively, admit thatyou haven't the foggiest idea of how to interpret this page.

The info in that page has been sourced from the NASA trans-Lunar reports. The burn information has been sourced from the the Saturn V launch vehicle flight evaluation reports, which ARE contemporaneous. An investigative journalist of your calibre will be able to source these documents for yourself
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Allan F

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #109 on: October 15, 2013, 10:33:14 AM »
Hello name-brother - you have not to my knowledge yet proven that the Van Allen Belts were so dangerous that they were an obstacle to be avoided. Also, you have not addressed the trajectory used, which was calculated with the help of James Van Allen himself. This trajectory which transported the Apollo missions north of the densest parts of the belts.

Some have claimed the VAB's are deadly, like a tsunami of radiation. Truth is, the ACTUAL radiation is more like a light drizzle or morning mist drifting in from the moor. Nobody ever drowned in that. And then consider the type of materials used in the crafts, which was perfectly capable of absorbing most of the radiation. The bremsstrahlung problem was solved with lightweight nuclei (aluminium, carbon, hydrogen) in the outermost parts, which have an electron structure not capable of producing hard x-rays. The soft x-rays actually created had limited penetrating power in aluminium, and was absorbed before it penetrated to the cabin.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #110 on: October 15, 2013, 10:40:38 AM »
A "contemporaneous account" would be AIAA 69-19 authored by Modisette, Lopez and Synder.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #111 on: October 15, 2013, 10:55:32 AM »
A "contemporaneous account" would be AIAA 69-19 authored by Modisette, Lopez and Synder.

Here is a link to where the paper can be found. 

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Offline gwiz

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #112 on: October 15, 2013, 11:00:14 AM »
OK, so far no contemporaneous accounts of how the belts were to be avoided...
You have been given the contemporaneous numbers for the Earth-Moon trajectory.  You have been directed to a page that uses these numbers to illustrate how that trajectory avoids the heart of the Van Allen Belts and instead skims the edge.  You have been given references for two contemporaneous papers that explain how the VAB hazard is minimised.  You obviously haven't the technical background to understand any of it.  You are just floundering around making yourself look ignorant.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #113 on: October 15, 2013, 11:09:52 AM »
I think* that he does not have any technical experience at all. Hence his assertion that he word-searched the document. I think that he was expecting a section that details the trajectory around the VA belts and explains in in "Janet and John" fashion. Instead he gets a page detailing the time and duration of burns (for example). These burns will have set the direction but he has no idea to translate that into a trajectory.





*and I fully accept that I am putting words in Mr Weisbecker's mouth here
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #114 on: October 15, 2013, 11:30:54 AM »
Wouldn't a contemporaneous explanation be one that took place literally at the same time as the Apollo missions?  Are we not, in fact, looking for a contemporary explanation?  One from the same era?  Because if our new visitor is really looking for a contemporaneous explanation, that is limiting to the point of ridiculous.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #115 on: October 15, 2013, 11:34:42 AM »
Wouldn't a contemporaneous explanation be one that took place literally at the same time as the Apollo missions?  Are we not, in fact, looking for a contemporary explanation?  One from the same era?  Because if our new visitor is really looking for a contemporaneous explanation, that is limiting to the point of ridiculous.

I guess that it would depend on your definition of the same period of time? If you define it as a second, then yes. If you define it as a couple of years, then no.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline dwight

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #116 on: October 15, 2013, 11:58:48 AM »
Hmmm, JSC has 85 reports specifically dealing with the radiation problem, including Shielding Verification, Soviet analysis of Apollo radiation, the ASROSS setup and a stack more reports. All from 1964-through present day, with the bulk before 1976 only a year after Apollo ended.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #117 on: October 15, 2013, 12:06:25 PM »
OK, so far no contemporaneous accounts...

Oh how sad:  your clumsy straw man tactic didn't work as expected.

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...(from NASA) is a 'broken link'

In case you haven't noticed, the U.S. government is presently shut down.  I'll offer an apology for the clown of a senator from my state who seems principally responsible for it, but the fact remains that the historically easiest way to obtain materials from NASA is temporarily unavailable for reasons that have nothing to do with this debate.

However, the sine qua non of investigative reporting is not "Can I click on it?"  You might actually have to visit one of the many libraries that is a government document depository.

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Why not just find the document/report/whatever I ask for made up out of thin air and be done with it?

There, fixed that for you.

Obligating your critics to provide some document requires more than idle speculation on your part that it exists in the form you imagine.  As with most interesting historical questions, you may need to do more than just read the answer you seek directly from some primary source.

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You have already stated that the mission trajectories were planned with the belts in mind. Surely you got this information somewhere...

Of course we did.  Just not from the hypothetical One Authoritative Source you ignorantly insist must exist and be the only voice you will listen to.  You're the one artificially restricting what evidence you will accept.  Don't blame us if your narrow filter doesn't let in the evidence the way it actually exists, or if prepackaged historical tidbits for any arbitrary question are not quickly found.

You're presuming that there exists somewhere in the annals of NASA some brief document written in the 1960s that states succinctly in as many words the same summary answer you've been given today to your question by knowledgeable professionals.  And you'll accept no substitute.  I'll let the world marvel at how an "investigative reporter" -- or indeed any sort of an historian -- would think that way.

Where did I get this information?  From the three feet of shelf space I devote to the secondary sources of Apollo historical material.  From the uncounted pages of digital primary material I've read over the past 15 years of answering conspiracy theorists, as well as a likely equal amount in the decades of my professional and educational career in space science preceding that.  From my hard-won knowledge of orbital mechanics and a working understanding of the AP-8 and AE-8 models that I have to use in my profession.  From the published orbital geometries (several contemporaneous sources) of the Apollo missions.  From my correspondence with Dr. Van Allen.

See, you receive the succinct, concise answers from us knowledgeable practitioners because we distill all this down for you.  To turn around and demand it in that same distilled form only from some other source is frankly insulting and arrogant on your part.

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Maybe one of you will surprise me.

I doubt it.  You have obviously come here with strong preconceptions of what you would find, and you are laboring most intently to make that preconception seem true.  You have utterly ignored corrections to your misunderstandings, you have arrogantly and assiduously asserted that what you believe to be true about our professions should be the standard to hold historical fact up to, and you have failed the most basic tests of observation.  Yet from this presumptively lofty perch you simply lob decades-old, long-debunked materials that you obviously just cribbed from the common web sources.  How is this anything but some sort of coup-counting exercise on your part?  You demonstrate zero desire to be taught, so what is your point in coming here?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 12:08:09 PM by JayUtah »
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Offline Andromeda

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #118 on: October 15, 2013, 12:27:13 PM »
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #119 on: October 15, 2013, 12:32:58 PM »

Have I missed any?
 ::)

'The "missing" Apollo 11 footage.'
Possibly the 'I'm just asking questions.'
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.