Author Topic: My God, it's full of stars...  (Read 37289 times)

Offline Abaddon

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Re: My God, it's full of stars...
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2014, 03:50:47 PM »
Celestia will do the job for you (another fantastic free download).

I gave it a quick try. Since 7587 was stated to be taken at 60 nm above the moon I arbitrarily put myself at 170 km altitude and zapped the FOV as high as it would go while limiting the star field to the brightest objects only. From that Muphrid-Arcturus-Izra in Bootes looks a good candidate for the three stars in 7588, but that's from a very cursory look.




Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: My God, it's full of stars...
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2014, 12:17:35 AM »
Thanks for the tip :)

Where did you read about 7587? I haven't seen that information in any of the photographic indices at that AFJ/ALSJ.

7581 is definitely Earth, and its configuration is consistent with a post-TEI view. 7582-3 are labelled as Earth but it is difficult to tell, although the size of the body masked by the lens flare and the lit crescent are consistent with that being correct based on 7581. That same crescent is visible in 7584-7 images labelled as 'Solar Eclipse', but we know that the Solar Eclipse wasn't observed until the 24th. Besides that they'd also run out of colour film by then, which is why they resorted to using the 16mm DAC.

Ill definitely check out Celestia though :)

Offline Abaddon

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Re: My God, it's full of stars...
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2014, 12:59:08 AM »
Thanks for the tip :)

Where did you read about 7587? I haven't seen that information in any of the photographic indices at that AFJ/ALSJ.

7581 is definitely Earth, and its configuration is consistent with a post-TEI view. 7582-3 are labelled as Earth but it is difficult to tell, although the size of the body masked by the lens flare and the lit crescent are consistent with that being correct based on 7581. That same crescent is visible in 7584-7 images labelled as 'Solar Eclipse', but we know that the Solar Eclipse wasn't observed until the 24th. Besides that they'd also run out of colour film by then, which is why they resorted to using the 16mm DAC.

Ill definitely check out Celestia though :)
I picked that up here. https://archive.org/details/AS12-51-7587. Can't speak to it's accuracy though, I just used it as a first guess. Out of curiosity, I pinged the question to Eric Jones who responded with his own Celestia screen shot suggesting Zubelgenubi-Venus-Zubeneschamali. This fits, but requires earth to be in frame. In support, Eric provides this quote from the transcript...
Conrad: It's - Venus is just below the Earth, and we can see Venus quite clearly, well, you can see all kinds of stars, but Venus is just below the Earth. This is - This is really a sight to behold, to see it at night time like this.

241:30:52 GET

Your mileage may vary, but I discarded this on the basis that Earth would appear in frame, and in attempting to photograph stars, they would have pointed the camera at the darkest spot, maybe? But TBH we are seeking a needle in a stack of needles.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: My God, it's full of stars...
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2014, 02:15:17 AM »
Thanks for the tip :)

Where did you read about 7587? I haven't seen that information in any of the photographic indices at that AFJ/ALSJ.

7581 is definitely Earth, and its configuration is consistent with a post-TEI view. 7582-3 are labelled as Earth but it is difficult to tell, although the size of the body masked by the lens flare and the lit crescent are consistent with that being correct based on 7581. That same crescent is visible in 7584-7 images labelled as 'Solar Eclipse', but we know that the Solar Eclipse wasn't observed until the 24th. Besides that they'd also run out of colour film by then, which is why they resorted to using the 16mm DAC.

Ill definitely check out Celestia though :)
I picked that up here. https://archive.org/details/AS12-51-7587. Can't speak to it's accuracy though, I just used it as a first guess. Out of curiosity, I pinged the question to Eric Jones who responded with his own Celestia screen shot suggesting Zubelgenubi-Venus-Zubeneschamali. This fits, but requires earth to be in frame. In support, Eric provides this quote from the transcript...
Conrad: It's - Venus is just below the Earth, and we can see Venus quite clearly, well, you can see all kinds of stars, but Venus is just below the Earth. This is - This is really a sight to behold, to see it at night time like this.

241:30:52 GET

Your mileage may vary, but I discarded this on the basis that Earth would appear in frame, and in attempting to photograph stars, they would have pointed the camera at the darkest spot, maybe? But TBH we are seeking a needle in a stack of needles.

Finding a needle in a stack of needles is my speciality :D

Conrad's quote is relating to their observation of the eclipse, so Earth may well have been the darkest spot at that point!

If it's a trio of stars (and it's still open to question whether they are celestial bodies!) then it shouldn't really matter where the observer is in the Earth-Moon plane, or (up to a point) when the observer is - unless an inconvenient home planet is in the way.

It's much more useful for our purposes if at least one of them is a planet, as that position fixes it with much more certainty in the timeline of the mission. I would have thought that if they were genuinely trying to take an image of stellar objects they'd have picked the brightest they could see, ie one of the planets.

All that said, it's just as likely that someone cataloguing the images looked at this one, saw a few dots and said "uuummm....yeah, stars, must be." :D

Thanks for the help though :)

Offline ka9q

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Re: My God, it's full of stars...
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2014, 03:02:37 AM »
Conrad's quote is relating to their observation of the eclipse, so Earth may well have been the darkest spot at that point!
Did you see the lunar eclipse the other night? The moon is never completely dark because of all the sunlight refracting around the earth due to its atmosphere. If Apollo 12 was still far enough away at that time, they too should have seen a ring of light around the dark side of the earth.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: My God, it's full of stars...
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2014, 07:32:32 AM »
Conrad's quote is relating to their observation of the eclipse, so Earth may well have been the darkest spot at that point!
Did you see the lunar eclipse the other night? The moon is never completely dark because of all the sunlight refracting around the earth due to its atmosphere. If Apollo 12 was still far enough away at that time, they too should have seen a ring of light around the dark side of the earth.

I didn't, but I've seen plenty, and it's not quite the same event as a lunar eclipse is the moon passing into the Earth's shadow, as opposed to this solar eclipse where the Earth blocked out the sun - something only 3 people have witnessed!

The photographic & 16mm evidence suggests that there wasn't complete coverage of the sun by the Earth, with a thin sliver of light all around the Earh (airglow?). They were also able to describe events on the Earth's night side that they could see , such as thunderstorms, so agreed it wasn't as completely black as the moon is when unlit :)

It's a shame we can't see those features in the photographs, as it would be even more ammunition to aim at the HB camp.

Offline ka9q

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Re: My God, it's full of stars...
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2014, 02:05:18 AM »
I didn't, but I've seen plenty, and it's not quite the same event as a lunar eclipse is the moon passing into the Earth's shadow, as opposed to this solar eclipse where the Earth blocked out the sun - something only 3 people have witnessed!
Actually, nearly all 7 billion of us see that every night...

(Runs quickly)

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: My God, it's full of stars...
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2014, 03:20:07 AM »
I didn't, but I've seen plenty, and it's not quite the same event as a lunar eclipse is the moon passing into the Earth's shadow, as opposed to this solar eclipse where the Earth blocked out the sun - something only 3 people have witnessed!
Actually, nearly all 7 billion of us see that every night...

(Runs quickly)

:D