Am I abberant

[johnbutcher]

I grew up with Apollo.
I know it's real!
So! Why does it  keep comingup as a hoax topic?

By the way: TTV2 is still an exhibit at the Scottish National Museum.
I saw it on 15/02/2014 and introduced it to my grandson.

As a Psychiatric Nurse. I have read many posts about this topic. However I have also read many topics deriding NASA.
Why?
Given its achievement's, why do so many of you denigrate it?

What do you see wrong with NASA

[ka9q]

As I'm sure others will point out, the name of this site is a misnomer. It exists for historical reasons. All the regulars here are strong defenders of the legacy of the Apollo program and we are most definitely offended by claims it was faked.

I was inspired to become an electrical engineer in part by the Apollo program, which occurred while I was in middle and high school. Many others here will tell similar stories.

But hey, if you really want to know what we think is wrong with NASA, I'm sure you'll get a lot of opinions...

[gillianren]

And the answer to "why do so many [who aren't us] denigrate it" is not a simple one.  We've been debating the question for years; my personal opinion is that the fallacy lies in believing there's only one answer to the question.

[smartcooky]

johnbutcher

Hoax believers (HBs for short) get handed their hat at this site. 

Mercury, Gemini and Apollo all took place when I was growing up; through my school years (from age 5 in 1960 to age 17 in 1972), The final Apollo mission took place at the end of 1972. It splashed down at around 8:30 in the morning of my last day at high school (December 20). I listened to the broadcast by the Voice of America on my old Stewart Warner short-wave radio before cycling to school.

A month later, I started training to be a Radar Mechanic in the Air Force (and eventually into the field of Avionics). The US Space programme had inspired me to join, even though I was living on the other side of the world from where it was all happening.

[Echnaton]

There are as many answers to the question of why people denigrate NASA and the Apollo program as there are people answering the question.  As to the "many" part of your post, there are very few left that do.  A decade ago this was a rich topic for the HB crowd.  The have mostly moved on to other, more engaging and less well documented topics.  Which bring up my general answer to the question, HBs are, like most of us, looking for emotional engagement and a sense of community in the way they know how.

[gillianren]

As I've said before, I read an entire book about conspiracism a while ago that didn't mention Apollo once.  It had Pearl Harbor and the anti-Stratfordians, both of which I would have thought more obscure, but not Apollo.

[Luke Pemberton]

As I've said before, I read an entire book about conspiracism a while ago that didn't mention Apollo once.  It had Pearl Harbor and the anti-Stratfordians, both of which I would have thought more obscure, but not Apollo.

Pearl Harbor? Is that the theory that the US could have prevented the Japanese from attacking, but allowed them to attack Pearl Harbor so they had a pre-text for war.

[darren r]

Pearl Harbor? Is that the theory that the US could have prevented the Japanese from attacking, but allowed them to attack Pearl Harbor so they had a pre-text for war.

I expect so. That's a theory which stems from a time when conspiracists at least had some grasp on rationality. Nowadays, the theory would be either that they weren't Japanese aircraft at all, but American ones painted to look Japanese, or that the whole thing was staged in a big water tank on a Hollywood backlot and that nobody actually died.

[Echnaton]

As I've said before, I read an entire book about conspiracism a while ago that didn't mention Apollo once.  It had Pearl Harbor and the anti-Stratfordians, both of which I would have thought more obscure, but not Apollo.

Pearl Harbor? Is that the theory that the US could have prevented the Japanese from attacking, but allowed them to attack Pearl Harbor so they had a pre-text for war.

I read a book about signal intelligence and the NSA named Puzzle Palace years ago.  The author detailed what is one nugget for a conspiracy this way. Military intelligence in a location that I no longer recall picked up and decoded some instructions being relayed from Tokyo to the Japanese embassy in Washington.  The content all but said there was a deceleration of war and attack a short time away.  MI  sent along the information in a re-encoded message, but the military radio frequencies were not operational at that time, so it was sent over civilian channels (by RCA IIRC.)  The civilian message was not marked to relate its importance so was put in the standard delivery box at the RCA office.  The attack occurred before the message was delivered to MI in Washington.  If the message had arrived, the information would have gone to the Navy command and Pearl Harbor would have been put on alert, instead of being vulnerable.

So CTs say this was a deliberate plan to leave the county vulnerable in the hopes of.......pick your poison.

[gillianren]

Pearl Harbor? Is that the theory that the US could have prevented the Japanese from attacking, but allowed them to attack Pearl Harbor so they had a pre-text for war.

That's the one, yes.  Despite the fact that FDR was interested in going to war in Europe and not particularly interested in going to war with Japan.  The only reason the US went to war with Germany is that they declared war on us after we declared war on Japan.  I'm sure a pretext would have eventually been found, but Pearl Harbor definitely wasn't it.

[Luke Pemberton]

The only reason the US went to war with Germany is that they declared war on us after we declared war on Japan.  I'm sure a pretext would have eventually been found, but Pearl Harbor definitely wasn't it.

That's my understanding. Before Pearl Harbour, FDR was concerned that Germany would invade Western Europe, he knew Britain and France could not stem the tide of the Wehrmacht. The events of 1940 proved him correct. Further to this, and probably more influential, was the 1941 invasion of Russia by Germany. If I recall, FDR and Churchill were concerned that if Russia defeated Germany, the Soviet influence would extend into Western Europe, so there was another reason for the US to enter the war against Germany.

If I recall, FDR wanted to enter the war in Europe as events from 1939 onward unfolded, but he knew he would not have the support of congress. He did however convince congress to provide the UK with material support.

Of course, once Japan attacked Pearl Harbor there was little chance that America would enter the European war. FDR would not have had congressional support to fight a war on two fronts. It was only because Hitler declared war on the US that he gained the support of congress to enter the European war as well.

There's no conspiracy to be found, just years of history unfolding in tragic strategic maneuvering between the world's great powers (plus the fallout of WW1 and Great Depression playing its role too).

I guess there's more to be had in a conspiracy than the actual truth. It has been discussed many times, but why do people believe in conspiracy when the actual truth is far more fascinating? I mean, men actually went to the moon, why spend large portions of one's life fighting that corner when the truth is far more magnificent. Men actually walked on the moon, that big rock in the sky that we have looked upon with wonder for millenniums. How amazing is that?

It's been said before, but it is such a shame when a great enterprise like Apollo is slandered by the nay sayers.

[Noldi400]

I read a book about signal intelligence and the NSA named Puzzle Palace years ago.  The author detailed what is one nugget for a conspiracy this way. Military intelligence in a location that I no longer recall picked up and decoded some instructions being relayed from Tokyo to the Japanese embassy in Washington.  The content all but said there was a deceleration of war and attack a short time away.  MI  sent along the information in a re-encoded message, but the military radio frequencies were not operational at that time, so it was sent over civilian channels (by RCA IIRC.)  The civilian message was not marked to relate its importance so was put in the standard delivery box at the RCA office.  The attack occurred before the message was delivered to MI in Washington.  If the message had arrived, the information would have gone to the Navy command and Pearl Harbor would have been put on alert, instead of being vulnerable.

My own recollection - admittedly it's been a while since I read on the subject - is that it was the other way around.  Washington had the information and sent an alert to all Pacific bases that a Japanese attack was believed to be imminent.  The channels to Pearl were down, so the message was sent as a telegram - incorrectly prioritized - and they therefore didn't receive the warning until it was too late.

[Echnaton]

I read a book about signal intelligence and the NSA named Puzzle Palace years ago.  The author detailed what is one nugget for a conspiracy this way. Military intelligence in a location that I no longer recall picked up and decoded some instructions being relayed from Tokyo to the Japanese embassy in Washington.  The content all but said there was a deceleration of war and attack a short time away.  MI  sent along the information in a re-encoded message, but the military radio frequencies were not operational at that time, so it was sent over civilian channels (by RCA IIRC.)  The civilian message was not marked to relate its importance so was put in the standard delivery box at the RCA office.  The attack occurred before the message was delivered to MI in Washington.  If the message had arrived, the information would have gone to the Navy command and Pearl Harbor would have been put on alert, instead of being vulnerable.

My own recollection - admittedly it's been a while since I read on the subject - is that it was the other way around.  Washington had the information and sent an alert to all Pacific bases that a Japanese attack was believed to be imminent.  The channels to Pearl were down, so the message was sent as a telegram - incorrectly prioritized - and they therefore didn't receive the warning until it was too late.

Actually that makes more sense.

[ka9q]

Wasn't there also a screw-up on the Japanese side? Something wasn't properly synchronized between their military and their diplomats in Washington.

Somewhere (it may have been The Puzzle Palace) I read that while the US didn't have an immediate decrypt of the Japanese diplomatic communications, they did intercept an order to the Japanese embassy to destroy their codes and ciphers -- something you do only when you're about to go to war.

[ka9q]

The only reason the US went to war with Germany is that they declared war on us after we declared war on Japan.

You mean he declared war on us first. There was only one person making decisions in Germany at that time.

According to Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich the average German wasn't at all happy about Hitler's declaration of war on the US. They didn't exactly say so in public, but the mood in Berlin was pretty glum.