False frame rates and a genius down under

[smartcooky]

I heard a very similar claim about 15 kHz from the other TV engineers, that many develop a "notch" at that frequency. But it probably wouldn't take long until you lose everything above 15 kHz anyway. Sigh.

Ah, I know it well. The Curse of the LOPT!

400 Hz was our standard audio test tone. 1 kHz was also used but much less often. I can still hear both quite well, and on airplanes I often wish I couldn't.

400Hz? Really? Our standard was 440 Hz. We even had a tuning fork labelled "A above middle C"

[Andromeda]

I think I'm tone deaf

What makes you say that?

Most music sounds the same to me, I struggle to pick out tunes from music and if you played two notes at me I would probably not be able to tell you which was higher unless they were really far apart.  If you played half a dozen notes from a little tune, I'd be completely unable to tell you if the pitches went higher-higher-lower-higher etc.

[Abaddon]

I think I'm tone deaf

What makes you say that?

Most music sounds the same to me, I struggle to pick out tunes from music and if you played two notes at me I would probably not be able to tell you which was higher unless they were really far apart.  If you played half a dozen notes from a little tune, I'd be completely unable to tell you if the pitches went higher-higher-lower-higher etc.

It's an odd, individual thing. I am probably about average. Abaddonette #1 can hear a tune once and proceed to play it on the piano. Abaddonette #2 may as well be peering into a shrub.

[Eastsider]

I think I'm tone deaf

What makes you say that?

Most music sounds the same to me, I struggle to pick out tunes from music and if you played two notes at me I would probably not be able to tell you which was higher unless they were really far apart.  If you played half a dozen notes from a little tune, I'd be completely unable to tell you if the pitches went higher-higher-lower-higher etc.

No one is completely tone deaf. I've never met a person who could not tell the difference between a low C vs a high C on a piano.

While every person has different inherent aptitudes, after 20 years as a professional musician, I'm pretty convinced just about everyone can be taught basic theory & rhythm to at least enjoy playing or to have a better general understanding of the mechanics of what they are hearing in music.

It takes thousands of hours of practice to get all of that information to become second nature as music is equal parts math & athleticism. 

Some might get there quicker than others, but everyone has to put in the work.

[gillianren]

Some might get there quicker than others, but everyone has to put in the work.

That's really condescending.

[Eastsider]

Some might get there quicker than others, but everyone has to put in the work.

That's really condescending.

How so? There was no disrespect intended.

What I was referring to is that here are some people out there who are prodigies that achieve high levels of playing sooner than others. I've seen that in person. It can be humbling to see an 11 year old play Bach at a high level.

[gillianren]

Yes.  Whereas my mother, no matter how much she practices, will never be able to sing well, because her voice is monotone.  You responded to someone with what sounds like a legitimate issue with her brain/ears with "you just need to work at it."  Bear in mind that several others on the board are musicians, too, and we're willing to accept that Andromeda is just wired differently.  I have known people who couldn't "just work at it."

[Eastsider]

Yes.  Whereas my mother, no matter how much she practices, will never be able to sing well, because her voice is monotone.  You responded to someone with what sounds like a legitimate issue with her brain/ears with "you just need to work at it."  Bear in mind that several others on the board are musicians, too, and we're willing to accept that Andromeda is just wired differently.  I have known people who couldn't "just work at it."

I wasn't talking about someone becoming a professional level performer or even competent amateur. I think you misunderstood my use of the word "work." I simply mentioned learning some basic music fundamentals to enhance playing or at least being a little more aware of the basic mechanics of music which require some work. I also mentioned the long hours that are required because a lot of people seem to think that music just simply magically comes out of people and when someone tries to learn, they can get flustered without realizing there is a lot of that "work" involved. Thousands of hours.

Music is also as much about the process as it is the end result. I know plenty of people that can't play a lick but love to play.

As much as I like baseball, I'm not going to be pitching for the Dodgers anytime soon but I'll still play a pickup game with friends and have a great time even with my terrible arm.....music can be that same kind of enjoyment for anyone if they wish.

[Andromeda]

Thank you, Eastsider, for completely dismissing my experience and telling me you know more about myself than I do 

[Jason Thompson]

Eastsider, why are you entirely dismissing Andromeda's reports of her own experience? She's not talking about an ability to play but an ability to recognise sounds and music. I think it's a safe bet that she is the expert in her own experience of how sounds and music are perceived by her. Do you honestly think she hasn't actually put in any 'work'? Do you say the same thing about colourblind people and their ability to perceive colour?

Andromeda is tone deaf, and her own experience bears that out. There is no more discussion to be had on that subject.

[ka9q]

It may or may not apply here, but there are such things as self-fulfilling prophecies.

[gillianren]

I wasn't talking about someone becoming a professional level performer or even competent amateur.

Neither was I.  My mother will never be able to produce two notes that are distinguishable from one another when she sings.  Now, to my dismay, she sings anyway.  She's seventy years old and has been singing all her life, and her voice just does that thing.  Why are you so convinced that Andromeda would be capable of hearing notes as distinguishable if she just worked at it?

[Eastsider]

Eastsider, why are you entirely dismissing Andromeda's reports of her own experience? She's not talking about an ability to play but an ability to recognise sounds and music. I think it's a safe bet that she is the expert in her own experience of how sounds and music are perceived by her. Do you honestly think she hasn't actually put in any 'work'? Do you say the same thing about colourblind people and their ability to perceive colour?

Andromeda is tone deaf, and her own experience bears that out. There is no more discussion to be had on that subject.

No one is completely tone deaf.

I have yet to meet anyone who can't tell the difference between the lowest C# on a piano vs the highest C#.
Those are identifiable tones. If a person can hear that, they can be taught to hear more. To what level? That depends on the person. Some people hear to greater or lesser levels naturally, but unless totally deaf every one can hear tones & notes.

I do this for a living and also occasionally teach...I just find these reactions odd, because when I meet people who claim to be tone deaf and I show them that they can actually hear notes, they are usually pretty encouraged.

I am not dismissing anyone's experience, quite the opposite. I know how frustrating & daunting it can sometimes be and try to encourage people to learn more and enjoy music without feeling intimidation.

I didn't say anyone hasn't put in the work, all I said is that it takes work.
It also takes THE RIGHT work. You would not believe how many people I have met that do not know how to practice.

I also said some people progress faster than others.

BTW, I am colorblind.

[Eastsider]

I wasn't talking about someone becoming a professional level performer or even competent amateur.

Neither was I.  My mother will never be able to produce two notes that are distinguishable from one another when she sings.  Now, to my dismay, she sings anyway.  She's seventy years old and has been singing all her life, and her voice just does that thing.  Why are you so convinced that Andromeda would be capable of hearing notes as distinguishable if she just worked at it?

I'm convinced because I have yet to meet someone that can't tell the difference between the lowest note on a piano vs the highest. If they can hear that, they can learn to hear more. People should give themselves more credit.

[JayUtah]

Used to work in a rather noisy equipment room, electro mechanical switches, all motors and relays and pawls and racthets and so on. In that cacophoney of audio audible assault on your ear 'oles you could pick out a switch mis stepping or a motor on its last legs. Funny how sounds works.

It's called the Cocktail Party effect, and it's fascinating.  The name derives from your ability to carry on a conversation in a crowded room and pay attention only to the people you're talking to and perceive their voices as predominant, when an objective measurement of relative sound levels reveals no physical reason why you should perceive it that way.  We've discovered this perceptual ability to focus (not just in hearing but also with other senses), and conversely, to weed out "background" stimulus is (1) extremely important to the brain, and (2) agonizing for us engineers who have to design human-machine interfaces -- specifically instrumentation that doesn't lull operators into complacency.