False frame rates and a genius down under

[onebigmonkey]

Thread necromancy alert:

Jarrah it seems has seen this thread, he was particularly unimpressed by it and Dwight's responses, and said so to user Truegroup in replies to the latter's comments in replies to his 'Flat Earth' video discussed in another thread.

It seemed only right to bring it up here so that there can be a right to reply.

In summary, our colonial friend denies that his Spacecraft Films DVD source is PAL, and that the DVD source is:

"obviously and specifically taken from the videotape masters, not the kinescope archives."

He also seems a little unimpressed by Dwight's book.

Anyone care to comment - either here or on his youtube? I'm afraid the technicalities of it are beyond me, but it strikes me that the issue here is treatment of the source on the ground being used as proof that the camera was not on the moon!

[bknight]

It's called the Cocktail Party effect, and it's fascinating.  The name derives from your ability to carry on a conversation in a crowded room and pay attention only to the people you're talking to and perceive their voices as predominant, when an objective measurement of relative sound levels reveals no physical reason why you should perceive it that way.  We've discovered this perceptual ability to focus (not just in hearing but also with other senses), and conversely, to weed out "background" stimulus is (1) extremely important to the brain, and (2) agonizing for us engineers who have to design human-machine interfaces -- specifically instrumentation that doesn't lull operators into complacency.

I myself due to my ADD can not have a conversation wih multiple persons, the voices go in, but the understanding doesn't connect each conversation to an individual.  I have many times IRL, told those subordinates around me to shut up and speak in turns, that I may make sense of all the people.

[bknight]

Thread necromancy alert:

Jarrah it seems has seen this thread, he was particularly unimpressed by it and Dwight's responses, and said so to user Truegroup in replies to the latter's comments in replies to his 'Flat Earth' video discussed in another thread.

It seemed only right to bring it up here so that there can be a right to reply.

In summary, our colonial friend denies that his Spacecraft Films DVD source is PAL, and that the DVD source is:

"obviously and specifically taken from the videotape masters, not the kinescope archives."

He also seems a little unimpressed by Dwight's book.

Anyone care to comment - either here or on his youtube? I'm afraid the technicalities of it are beyond me, but it strikes me that the issue here is treatment of the source on the ground being used as proof that the camera was not on the moon!

After reading the whole thread, I also don't understand the technicalities of the camera rates etc.

[gillianren]

If Jarrah wants people's responses, he can talk to them.  I have never watched any of his videos, because I find video is usually a lousy way of making scientific points, and it sounds like he doesn't say anything interesting in them anyway.  I am also frankly of the opinion that the worst thing we can do is make him feel important in any way!

[BertieSlack]

Thread necromancy alert:

Jarrah it seems has seen this thread, he was particularly unimpressed by it and Dwight's responses, and said so to user Truegroup in replies to the latter's comments in replies to his 'Flat Earth' video discussed in another thread.

It seemed only right to bring it up here so that there can be a right to reply.

In summary, our colonial friend denies that his Spacecraft Films DVD source is PAL, and that the DVD source is:

"obviously and specifically taken from the videotape masters, not the kinescope archives."

He also seems a little unimpressed by Dwight's book.

Anyone care to comment - either here or on his youtube? I'm afraid the technicalities of it are beyond me, but it strikes me that the issue here is treatment of the source on the ground being used as proof that the camera was not on the moon!

Somebody called 'Hadley Rille' has pointed out something quite interesting on TrueGroup's thread. What interested him about Jarrah's analysis of the Apollo 11 TV EVA frame-rate was Jarrah's choice of clip to use. He chose a clip of one of the astronauts turning around but staying essentially static within the image frame. When you look at the TV picture you can see the whole frame swaying and shimmying. Jarrah slows the clip down and basically says "Wow, I can detect movement a lot more than ten times per second therefore this was not originally recorded at 10fps." As Hadley pointed out, the converted 30fps video is not of sufficient quality to confidently draw that conclusion, and the apparent small change in the image of the astronaut could be due to a number of other factors. What Jarrah should have done was use a clip of an astronaut moving at substantial speed across the field. Interestingly, Jarrah does show a clip of an astronaut jumping down the ladder at the start of his "false frame rates" video. If you slow that clip down, it's clear that the astronaut is moving at only 10fps. I've tried it a number of times with other portions of the TV coverage. It's always 10fps.

[dwight]

It is always a good thing when someone dislikes something so strongly, especially when they clearly state they have no interest in it. I just wish he hadn't held himself back in his opinion.

[bknight]

It is always a good thing when someone dislikes something so strongly, especially when they clearly state they have no interest in it. I just wish he hadn't held himself back in his opinion.

Perhaps post to the video and fulfill that wish?

[JayUtah]

Most of the frame-rate accusations suffer from the artifacts found in their convenience versions of the video.

[ka9q]

Most of the frame-rate accusations suffer from the artifacts found in their convenience versions of the video.

Very much so.

What are the best reference versions? I see a lot of the later mission EVAs were transferred to film (hence many of the "support wire" claims) probably because in those days it was much cheaper and more compact than videotape. Did any tape copies survive? How were the film transfers made?

[bknight]

Most of the frame-rate accusations suffer from the artifacts found in their convenience versions of the video.

Very much so.

What are the best reference versions? I see a lot of the later mission EVAs were transferred to film (hence many of the "support wire" claims) probably because in those days it was much cheaper and more compact than videotape. Did any tape copies survive? How were the film transfers made?

I don't know the transfer method but most of the videos exist in ALSJ with Quick Time media format, as you probably know.

[JayUtah]

I would assume the film copies were made by ordinary kinescope until someone shows me differently.

[dwight]

The Spacecraftfilms A11 Fox dvds are derived from kinescope. Only their remastered special dvd which came with Live from the Moon bluray is derived from 2" CBS tv, sydney video vhs and ed von renuards 8mm. However, that is -not- what started this thread. But dont let that convince the protagonist otherwise.

[BertieSlack]

However, that is -not- what started this thread. But dont let that convince the protagonist otherwise.

So what exactly is Jarrah's claim? How does any alleged mystery about conversion frame-rate cast any doubt on the original 10fps source?

[bknight]

The Spacecraftfilms A11 Fox dvds are derived from kinescope. Only their remastered special dvd which came with Live from the Moon bluray is derived from 2" CBS tv, sydney video vhs and ed von renuards 8mm. However, that is -not- what started this thread. But dont let that convince the protagonist otherwise.

Do you think that the transfer "created" all the "supporting wires" theories?

[ka9q]

Do you think that the transfer "created" all the "supporting wires" theories?

I've seen some Youtube videos claiming to spot "wires" that were obviously vertical scratches on the film. The "wires" were all over the place, not just above the astronauts.