JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[Chew]

Don't forget Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman on the 5th floor of the TSBD who all said the shots came from above them. Norman even said he heard the bolt cycling and the ejected shells hitting the floor.

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.

Read the transcripts.
Bonnie Ray Williams, did not hear anything from the 6th floor. PERIOD.

Answered above.

James Jarmin Jr. claimed the shots came from below and right (grassy knoll), did not hear anything from the 6th floor.PERIOD.

Are you being intentionally dishonest?

Representative FORD - Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought.
Representative FORD - As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President's car.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?
Mr. JARMAN - I am sure it came from the left.
Representative FORD - But your first reaction, that is was from below.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, they all sounded just about the same.

Harold Norman never said he heard any shots coming from the 6th floor. He said "sounded like shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle".

Norman testified:

Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where?
Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us.

[Chew]

Just to start with, Newman said he thought the shots came from behind him. Here he is indicating where he thought they came from:

Have no idea what you have posted and it is not evidence of anything.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/newmwsh.htm
From Shaw Trial
"Q: Do you have any impression as to the direction from which the shots came?
A: Yes, sir. From the sound of the shots, the report of the rifle or whatever it was, it sounded like they were coming directly behind from where I was standing."

Newman was standing by the Stemmons freeway sign, as he had indicated the shots were coming from directly behind, he would have to been facing the grassy knoll during the assassination to have the shots originate from the TSBD.

I never said nor implied Newman claimed the shots came from the TSBD. I said Newman claimed the shots came from directly behind him, which would put the shooter to at the north end of the pergola. The grassy knoll was directly towards Newman's right.

[Jason Thompson]

Have no idea what you have posted and it is not evidence of anything.

How can you say it is not evidence of anything if you have no idea what it was?

You could not more clearly illustrate your agenda to simply disprove the official version of events rather than actually try to understand the truth.

I suppose it's not even worth mentioning yet again your ongoing refusal to address the FACT that the shots have been duplicated.

[gillianren]

what do you mean by Official Story (TM)

This ridiculous assertion that people only say that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin because that's what the Warren Report says.  The idea that Lee's involvement only makes sense if you're a government stooge.  Admittedly it's not quite as ludicrous as the belief that people only accept Apollo because it's what the government says is true, because the evidence in JFK isn't as blindingly obvious.  However, fields like ballistics and photographic analysis are not completely controlled by any entity.  (That's leaving aside that the US government is hardly a single entity and that the various agencies have never exactly been known to get along.)  When Jason and I repeatedly tell you that we've seen those shots duplicated (would you like to respond to that fact?), we're not talking about the US government.  We saw it on TV.  The thing wasn't even exclusively US-produced, much less by a government entity. 

But no, this is what we get.  A refusal to state exactly what the conspiracist thinks happened.  Cherry-picking evidence.  (I'm the one who pointed you to McAdams, remember, and so I have a pretty good idea of what that site says.  It only very seldom says what you claim it does.)  Avoiding replying to direct questions and ignoring anything which doesn't, in your mind, tear down the simple fact that Lee acted alone from the TSBD.  Out of idle curiosity, what do you think happened to Officer Tippit?

[profmunkin]

If you correctly read the transcripts you will know Williams did not eat his lunch at the southeast corner. And by his estimate he finished no later than 12:12 then went down to the 5th floor.

Mr. McCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.
Mr. McCLOY. Just 12?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?
Mr. WILLIAMS. In the Southeast is--the southeast. I really don't remember if I seen anything-- it would be just the top edge of the window, as I remember.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.

"Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25."


Jarmin and Harold did not proceed to the 5th floor until after 12:20-12:25
Williams was not on the 5th floor when they arrived.
Williams said he did not leave the 6th floor until he after he heard noises coming from the 5th floor and took the elevator down to see if it was his friends.

Are you implying Oswald was lurking on the 6th floor in the "snipers lair" for 20-25 minutes, undetected by Williams only a few windows away?

Oswald could not have known when the President would pass the TSBD, but lunch was over at 12:30, workers would normally be returning to work on the 6th floor at that time. Something to think about.

[profmunkin]

I never said nor implied Newman claimed the shots came from the TSBD. I said Newman claimed the shots came from directly behind him, which would put the shooter to at the north end of the pergola. The grassy knoll was directly towards Newman's right.

Draw a line from where the limo was in frame Z-189 to the grassy knoll, it passes almost right over the top of the Newmans. Newman would have been facing the limo as it came down the street. The shot would have come from directly behind him.

[profmunkin]

Are you being intentionally dishonest?

Sorry, Jarmin: shots came from below and to the left not below and to the right, I stand corrected.

Below...Below.Below

"Representative FORD - But your first reaction, that is was from below.
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, they all sounded just about the same."

Below...Below.Below.


What's answered above?  Jarmin nor Williams heard anything from the 6th floor.
Noman thought he heard shells dropping and action of bolt, never said he heard shots.
He concluded shots must have come from 6th floor from these two sounds ONLY, based on what he said.

Will you tell me what action these 3 men took immediately after the assassination assuming they knew the gunman was on the 6th floor?

[Chew]

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.

Considering there are 7 sets of windows the 3rd or 4th window would put him pretty much in the middle of the building.

Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.

"Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25."

Williams gave contradictory estimates for the time. I'll agree with the 12:20-12:25 time frame.

Jarmin and Harold did not proceed to the 5th floor until after 12:20-12:25
Williams was not on the 5th floor when they arrived.
Williams said he did not leave the 6th floor until he after he heard noises coming from the 5th floor and took the elevator down to see if it was his friends.

Citation needed. His testified he left because it was too quiet and the others had not shown up as they had talked about watching the motorcade from the 6th floor.

Are you implying Oswald was lurking on the 6th floor in the "snipers lair" for 20-25 minutes, undetected by Williams only a few windows away?

I am not implying that. I am stating it. Does lurking require one to make noise? Williams was asked if he saw anyone at the southeast corner. No said no because there was a big pile of boxes there.

Oswald could not have known when the President would pass the TSBD, but lunch was over at 12:30, workers would normally be returning to work on the 6th floor at that time. Something to think about.

Except nobody went back to work at 12:30. They all stayed where they were to watch the President drive by. Do you have evidence Truly was going around telling people to get back to work? Maybe it's probable he cut them some slack so they could see the President.

You have ignored my corrections about the men on the 5th floor testimony.
Jarman said he initially thought the shots came from below. When asked from the left or from the right he said from the left.
Williams said he thought they come from inside the building, it shook the building, and saw debris fall.
Norman said the shots came from above him.

[profmunkin]

I wondered why not and was a little disappointed, because those post were about four times harder to produce than normal because I was quite ill.  New meds started five days ago have helped a little and returned things to nearer normal.

I feel sorry for Jason Thompson who has repeatedly asked you something about the duplication of two shots.  Why don't you put him out of his misery and answer? 

I hope you are feeling better, not under any circumstances would I wish you ill.
I don't know how to answer post 103 and 104, since you and others appear to be convinced the Z film is the absolute definitive script and has not been modified by special effects.

I am not certain of order of the shots
But if you are referring to:
JFK head shot, I think he was hit on the back portion of his head, it took out a chuck of skull and brain matter, projecting it toward Hargis and Martin. The bullet continued and burroughed in the grass around Brehm Moorman or Hill.
or
Connally was hit from the back as he hunched down in the back seat.

[Chew]

I never said nor implied Newman claimed the shots came from the TSBD. I said Newman claimed the shots came from directly behind him, which would put the shooter to at the north end of the pergola. The grassy knoll was directly towards Newman's right.

Draw a line from where the limo was in frame Z-189 to the grassy knoll, it passes almost right over the top of the Newmans. Newman would have been facing the limo as it came down the street. The shot would have come from directly behind him.

So the bullet was shot from the grassy knoll, flew over Newman's head, turned 135° to the right in mid-air, and hit JFK in the head? Another one of your magic bullets? How many magic bullets have you created now? You said one bullet hit Connally in the back, wrist and leg. That's one. Some guy saw a bullet kick up grass from 250 feet away. That's two. What other ones am I missing?

Q: Just tell us what you observed.
A: Well, I observed his ear flying off, and he turned just real white and then blood red, and the President, when the third shot hit him he just went stiff like a board and fell over to his left in his wife's lap, and I told my wife, "That is it, hit the ground," and that is when we hit the ground because I thought the shots were coming over our heads. And then I looked back and I saw Mrs. Kennedy jumping up on the back end of the car and the Secret Service man or whoever it was into the car, and then they shot on off, took off. ^Link

[gillianren]

I don't know how to answer post 103 and 104, since you and others appear to be convinced the Z film is the absolute definitive script and has not been modified by special effects.

If you want anyone to believe otherwise, you have to explain how it was modified.  And I don't just mean from a technical perspective, though that would be a good place to start.  I mean where in the chronology was it possible to modify the Zapruder film?

[profmunkin]

How can you say it is not evidence of anything if you have no idea what it was?

You could not more clearly illustrate your agenda to simply disprove the official version of events rather than actually try to understand the truth.

I suppose it's not even worth mentioning yet again your ongoing refusal to address the FACT that the shots have been duplicated.

What difference does it make what it was, it was not identified as evidence, was it Newman, was he under oath, what was the question and what was the full answer in context?

FACT - In reading testimonies of witnesses, so far, I have found 3 people that thought the shots came from the TSBD area, 23 that said the grassy knoll and 33 who were either never asked by the FBI or WC or didn't have an opinion and Bowers who said it could have been either location.

So where is there any evidence that shots came from the 6th floor of the TSBD, other than potentially "planted" mauser rifle and 3 cartridges?

The back wound was located lower than the throat wound, so how could anyone duplicate an impossible shot?

[Chew]

FACT - In reading testimonies of witnesses, so far, I have found 3 people that thought the shots came from the TSBD area, 23 that said the grassy knoll and 33 who were either never asked by the FBI or WC or didn't have an opinion and Bowers who said it could have been either location.

Whenever a conspiracy theorist says he has such a preponderance of shots coming from the grassy knoll compared to the TSBD we know they are lying. Does your list include "honest" mistakes like reversing the direction Jarman stated?

[Chew]

What difference does it make what it was, it was not identified as evidence, was it Newman, was he under oath, what was the question and what was the full answer in context?

It came from On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald filmed in 1984. He says where he thought the shots came from starting at 3:35.

[Jason Thompson]

you and others appear to be convinced the Z film is the absolute definitive script and has not been modified by special effects.

Prove otherw8ise and we'll have a basis for discussion of that. You can start by telling us exactly what sort of special effects manipulation can actually be done on exposed 8mm film (with an area of image measuring only about 5 x 3 mm), how long this might take, and exactly when it was supposed to have occurred. Until then we have no basis for dismissing any assumption of authenticity for the Zapruder film.