JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[profmunkin]

You also emphasise how many witnesses claim to have heard the sound of shots from the grassy knoll, but continue to refuse to address the FACT that it was impossible to inflict the wounds on Kennedy and Connolly from the knoll because (FACT) they were shot in the back while the Knoll was in front of the limo at the time the shots were fired. Nor have you addressed the FACT that the wounds have been duplicated by other shooters using the exact same type of rifle from a the same height, distance and angle as on the day of the assassination.

If you believe the Bethesda autopsy, you are partially correct.

[profmunkin]

That is a generalization, not a specific to the situation.  Do those statements mean that smoke from a gun fired on the GK would have been visible to all witnesses that reported seeing some and identifiable as gun smoke?   If so why do you think so?  If not, why did you post them?

Nope
I was saying that if a rifle was fired from the TSBD, along with all the other stuff I listed there seems to have been a possibility to also have seen some smoke.

[ka9q]

Concerning smoke from rifles, here is expert witness from the WC

Mr. EDGAR. Do rifles or handguns emit smoke that is discernable to the human eye?
Mr. LUTZ. Yes, sir; they do.

Lutz is correct; as I said, even modern "smokeless" powder (nitrocellulose) can generate a very small amount of smoke.

See http://www.ka9q.net/mag30th.mp4 at 01:15. Note that the smoke cloud is seen against a bright background by a camera very close to the gun. Still, it is very thin and rapidly dissipates after each shot. That such a cloud would show up in Moorman's poor-quality Polaroid photo looking into a shaded area from a much greater distance seems extremely unlikely.

[ka9q]

Nope
I was saying that if a rifle was fired from the TSBD, along with all the other stuff I listed there seems to have been a possibility to also have seen some smoke.

What? Are you saying that it's not enough that several witnesses saw a person aiming a rifle out of a window directly at JFK's limousine; that they heard several loud bangs emanate from said rifle; and they presumably noticed the rifle recoil a little each time?

Are you saying that couldn't have been the murder weapon unless the witnesses also saw smoke come from it each time it was fired?

Wow, what a strangely warped world you live in.

[ka9q]

If you believe the Bethesda autopsy, you are partially correct.

I prefer the word "accept". "Belief" implies taking something on faith, without proof. No faith is required here. There is plenty of forensic proof that JFK was hit by two bullets from the rear and only from the rear. That was the formal conclusion of the autopsy report.

This report was hardly the unfounded personal speculation of the three pathologists who conducted the autopsy; I don't have to point out that they examined the body and you didn't.

Their conclusions are fully supported by the photographs and X-rays taken during the autopsy. These photographs and X-rays have been repeatedly certified by medical imaging experts as genuine images of John F. Kennedy. They are fully consistent with images of Kennedy's wounds taken during the assassination, particularly in the Zapruder film.

The procedures used to arrive at the pathologists' conclusions were witnessed by the many observers and assistants at the autopsy. Others certify that the body was never left unattended during the entire trip from Parkland Hospital to Bethesda Naval Hospital.  Several official review panels of experienced pathologists, as well as independent medical experts such as Dr. John K. Lattimer, have repeatedly examined all the records of the autopsy and have come to the very same conclusions.

So there is simply no rational reason to reject the autopsy findings that two and only two bullets hit JFK, and only from behind and slightly above.

[Echnaton]

That is a generalization, not a specific to the situation.  Do those statements mean that smoke from a gun fired on the GK would have been visible to all witnesses that reported seeing some and identifiable as gun smoke?   If so why do you think so?  If not, why did you post them?

Nope
I was saying that if a rifle was fired from the TSBD, along with all the other stuff I listed there seems to have been a possibility to also have seen some smoke.

"Seems to have been a possibility?" 

Not that there was visible smoke or not that it was likely to have been visible under the circumstances of the situation.    So, like I said a generalization. 

[gillianren]

So there is simply no rational reason to reject the autopsy findings that two and only two bullets hit JFK, and only from behind and slightly above.

The important word there is "rational," of course!  While Kennedy conspiracism is not inherently irrational, I think we've reached the place where it's obvious that this is not rational argument.

[ka9q]

The important word there is "rational," of course!  While Kennedy conspiracism is not inherently irrational

Interesting choice of words. When is it not inherently irrational?

I suppose JFK conspiracism could also be driven by simple ignorance of the facts. That would not necessarily be irrational. That what you mean?

[profmunkin]

Are you saying that couldn't have been the murder weapon unless the witnesses also saw smoke come from it each time it was fired?

Wow, what a strangely warped world you live in.

No
Remember I was talking about the ss agents and their failures including their inability to locate the sniper.

[ka9q]

No
Remember I was talking about the ss agents and their failures including their inability to locate the sniper.

What about their inability to locate the sniper? Do you really think these agents were superhuman? They had a lot to look at. They were surrounded by tall buildings with many windows and dense crowds of people, any one of which could instantly turn into a deadly threat. They only had a few seconds to do all this, while also keeping a close eye on the people they were supposed to protect.

Oswald was not so stupid as to not understand the importance of hiding from the agents until the last possible moment. He certainly would have known they were armed, and could and probably would shoot at him if they could find him. The longer he could keep them confused, the better. This could be why he waited until after the limo made the turn onto Elm Street, when the agents would turn away from him. It would take precious milliseconds to turn their heads to look for him, and in the process they would have to turn away from the people they were protecting.

After all, it is easier to shoot someone in the back. That's why it's become a cliche of cowardice in so many westerns.

It would have been unreasonable to expect Oswald to stay totally hidden, of course. But he did pretty well; of the hundreds of witnesses in Dealy Plaza only a few  actually saw him shoot. (But they were enough, along with all the other evidence, to tell us he did it.) They just happened to be in the right spot looking in the right direction at the right time. But they were not armed and they could not possibly have stopped Oswald. Only the agents counted, and Oswald did everything he could to hide himself from them for just a few more seconds. (Note that when you look down the barrel of a gun, it appears a little smaller than when you're looking at it in profile.)

As agent Clint Hill finally said, after many years of blaming himself into an alcoholic haze for not having prevented the assassination, on that day in Dallas all the advantages went to the shooter. There was simply nothing they could have done under the circumstances. And I think he was absolutely right. You will note that since that day, no American president has ever taken another open-air motorcade ride through a crowded city. Dallas demonstrated that it is simply not humanly possible to protect a president under those conditions.

[Echnaton]

Remember I was talking about the ss agents and their failures including their inability to locate the sniper.

And on what basis do you claim the ability to judge the actions of the SS a failure?  Let me remind the readers; there is no basis, because profmunkin has no experience in these matters, nor does he think any is required.

My Expertise and Training IS Irrelevant!

[Jason Thompson]

Anticipating the obvious response to that question, yes, the SS agents failed to protect Kennedy from an assassin, and he died as a result of that failure.

The question is, however, was that failure a reasonable outcome given the circumstances?

According to the man who thinks training and expertise is irrelevant, no, because it seems he has an expectation that their special training ahould have endowed them with superhuman abilities and relfexes, and that human limitations and the circumstances of the situation should not in any way have impeded them from carrying out this duty.

It is worth considering that many of those involved have driven themselves into alcoholism, depression and other psychological traumas over that question: could they have done more and maybe saved his life?

[profmunkin]

In a quick review of testimony of the SS agents in limo and followup car it is interesting that I was not able to find that, not one of them indicates shots may have come from a building, to reinforce this point not one of them mentions the TSBD as potential source for the shots.
The only mention of a building is from Landis as stated that he looked over his right shoulder "toward a modernistic building" which would be the cement structure adjacent to the knoll.
Check it out I and let me know if I am correct in this quick assessment.

[profmunkin]

I ran across this yesterday and found it curious.
From AARB
Dr. Jones "...When I completed my testimony Arlen Specter followed me out in the hall and he said, I want to tell you something that I don't want you to say anything about. He said, We have people who will testify at the [that they] saw the President shot from the front. He said : You can always get people to testify about something..."

Interesting, makes me wonder who these people are and why they did not have the opportunity to testify, it should make you wonder too.
Also the last phrase is very interesting, isn't he saying a good lawyer can build any narrative he wants if unchecked?

[LunarOrbit]

Profmunkin, I'd really like to see you draw a simple diagram of Dealy Plaza showing the following:

- the position of JFK's limo at the times of the two shots that hit him, as well as the positions of the Secret Service cars
- the position of the School Book Depository
- the location of the alleged grassy knoll gunman

The reason I say this is because you say things like "the agent looked back over his right shoulder towards the grassy knoll" and that the shots came from the grassy knoll, which tells me you have no understanding of the layout of the area. Either that or you believe the agents were standing backwards on the car and the assassins bullet performed 180 degree turn in midair.