Author Topic: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots  (Read 603136 times)

Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #930 on: June 02, 2012, 01:30:42 PM »
Profmunkin, I'd really like to see you draw a simple diagram of Dealy Plaza showing the following:

- the position of JFK's limo at the times of the two shots that hit him, as well as the positions of the Secret Service cars
- the position of the School Book Depository
- the location of the alleged grassy knoll gunman

The reason I say this is because you say things like "the agent looked back over his right shoulder towards the grassy knoll" and that the shots came from the grassy knoll, which tells me you have no understanding of the layout of the area. Either that or you believe the agents were standing backwards on the car and the assassins bullet performed 180 degree turn in midair.

Profmunkin has had ample opportunity to make his case.  We should enforce this simple requirement on him to back up his statements before he is allowed to carry on further. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #931 on: June 02, 2012, 04:22:10 PM »
As expected, despite a number of questions, he just comes back with more and more muck to fling at the wall.

Evidence of Zapruder film being altered? None.

Explanation for how the wounds were inflicted from the knoll? None.

Do you actually know what 'evidence' is, prof?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #932 on: June 02, 2012, 06:43:23 PM »
I presented evidence outside of the WC investigation and all of it was rejected.

Most recently I have been presenting data, trends and corroborated evidence extracted directly from WC testimonies and you guys are whining that I am cherry-picking or taking testimony out of context or claiming various phenomenas identified by science in every instance negates all the data that does not support the WC report.

For a "science forum" this is hilarious.

Yes, I will continue to post testimony that is contrary to the WC report because testimonies do not support the WC Report.

It does not matter what I think happened in Dealey Plaza, what is important is, will what you have been told continue to hold your belief.

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #933 on: June 02, 2012, 06:49:00 PM »
As expected, despite a number of questions, he just comes back with more and more muck to fling at the wall.

Evidence of Zapruder film being altered? None.

Explanation for how the wounds were inflicted from the knoll? None.

Do you actually know what 'evidence' is, prof?
None.
Don't care enough to share.
If you ask directly, Not sure, maybe you can enlighten me as to what evidence actually is. I have asked this question many times on this forum without a response.
What is acceptable evidence. Exactly.

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #934 on: June 02, 2012, 06:59:45 PM »
Profmunkin has had ample opportunity to make his case.  We should enforce this simple requirement on him to back up his statements before he is allowed to carry on further.
I would welcome the challenge to back up any claim I have made concerning testimony.
I thought I had been quoting and documenting as posted, but obviously it has been insufficient.

Please let me know what points I need to document and elaborate on.


Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #935 on: June 02, 2012, 07:03:42 PM »
Profmunkin, I'd really like to see you draw a simple diagram of Dealy Plaza showing the following:

- the position of JFK's limo at the times of the two shots that hit him, as well as the positions of the Secret Service cars
- the position of the School Book Depository
- the location of the alleged grassy knoll gunman

The reason I say this is because you say things like "the agent looked back over his right shoulder towards the grassy knoll" and that the shots came from the grassy knoll, which tells me you have no understanding of the layout of the area. Either that or you believe the agents were standing backwards on the car and the assassins bullet performed 180 degree turn in midair.
You may be correct on my miss interpretations, after all, almost all of the information in the SS reports concerning the assassination are only a few lines long and most of the reports are very vague.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #936 on: June 02, 2012, 07:37:27 PM »
I presented evidence outside of the WC investigation and all of it was rejected.

And the reasons were given. It was not rejected because it was outside the Warren Commission investigation.

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Most recently I have been presenting data, trends and corroborated evidence extracted directly from WC testimonies

No, you have presented data but consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented it.

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and you guys are whining that I am cherry-picking or taking testimony out of context or claiming various phenomenas identified by science in every instance negates all the data that does not support the WC report.

What a shame that science doesn't conform to your layman's expectations then. If you can't be bothered to cultivate the relevant understanding then that's your problem.

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For a "science forum" this is hilarious.

It always is to people who don't know the first thing about science. Your disbelief and lack of understanding makes no odds to the reality of science, however.

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It does not matter what I think happened in Dealey Plaza, what is important is, will what you have been told continue to hold your belief.

No, what is important is that you demonstrate you actually have some form of integrity. You have claimed to have an alternative scenario. Present it or clear off. You're getting very tiresome now.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #937 on: June 02, 2012, 07:38:45 PM »
Please let me know what points I need to document and elaborate on.

Don't ask that question as if it's the first time. You have been told over and over and over again what you need to elaborate on. You have been asked over and over again what your alternaitve is, and how you support that with evidence. Just answer the questions that have been posed instead of playing games.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #938 on: June 02, 2012, 08:41:32 PM »
He said : You can always get people to testify about something..."

Interesting, makes me wonder who these people are and why they did not have the opportunity to testify, it should make you wonder too.
Also the last phrase is very interesting, isn't he saying a good lawyer can build any narrative he wants if unchecked?
Yes, indeed it is interesting. And yes indeed, a good lawyer -- anyone, for that matter -- can build almost any narrative if unchecked. That's precisely why courts have rules of evidence designed to exclude unreliable, irrelevant and prejudicial evidence, unqualified 'experts', junk science, and the like. That's why witnesses can be prosecuted if they deliberately lie. That's why attorneys can be sanctioned or even held in contempt by the judge for misstating the evidence. That's why each side's witnesses can be cross-examined by the other. That's why it's perfectly reasonable, proper and routine for attorneys to try to 'impeach' the credibility of an adverse witness by citing a past history of deceit or criminality. That's why the trier of fact (the jury, or the judge without a jury) is entitled to consider the credibility and integrity of each witness as they weigh their testimony. That's why juries are routinely admonished not to form premature conclusions but to wait until they have heard all of the evidence.

And that's why every single formal inquiry into the JFK assassination has come to the same conclusions: that Lee Harvey Oswald killed President John F. Kennedy and Officer JD Tippit and injured Governor Connally, and that he did so alone and without a conspiracy. Although none of these inquiries was an actual criminal trial of Oswald (because he was dead), they nonetheless followed many (though certainly not all) of the rules and procedures that would have been used in such a trial.

But when it comes to informal examinations of the case by private individuals producing books, magazine articles, movies, radio talk shows, interviews, documentaries, Internet blogs, etc, none of these rules apply. Thanks to our First Amendment freedoms of the press and speech (and I wouldn't have it any other way) almost anything goes short of direct threats, incitement to imminent violence or libel. And in the United States (but not in many other countries, notably the UK) a plaintiff who is also a public figure must work very hard to win a libel case.

So when you write your book alleging that JFK was killed by a massive conspiracy involving the CIA, FBI, Secret Service, the Dallas Police Department, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Mafia, Vice President Johnson, Cuban Intelligence, General Motors, the Soviet KGB, and local Boy Scout Troop 340, you don't have to give both sides of the story. It's your book; say whatever you want. Pick and choose the witnesses that support your case and ignore the rest. Quote only that which helps you and ignore the rest, like the bits that completely change the meaning of what you quoted or reveal the witness to be as nutty as a fruitcake. When discussing the flood of information that came out so haphazardly soon after the assassination, with much of it being 'corrected' later, insist that conspiracies never make 'mistakes'. They only cover things up.

Go ahead and completely make up stuff; the more outrageous and sensational, the better your book will sell. Just be careful about the people who are still alive, as some could sue and maybe even win for libel and that might cut into your profits. Whenever you're at a loss for evidence to back up an allegation, and you can't make up anything sufficiently juicy, blame the all-powerful conspiracy for its utter ruthlessness in suppressing and covering up the evidence that you know must have existed.

Say that writing this book has been a labor of love for you, and that you simply must get the word out and you no longer care what they will do to you. Audiences just eat up that sort of thing. So go nuts. Insane paranoia is The American Way.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 08:47:23 PM by ka9q »

Offline twik

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #939 on: June 02, 2012, 09:10:56 PM »
Explanation for how the wounds were inflicted from the knoll? None.
Don't care enough to share.

Don't care enough to share?

Look, you want us to be persuaded of the rightness of your case, right? Well, this is one of the most important things in convincing us. And you don't care enough to share?

You've "just asked questions" for over 50 pages, so you clearly care. But the above seems to be an admission that you do not have any actual narrative of what did happen, if your grand conspiracy theory is true.

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #940 on: June 02, 2012, 09:14:41 PM »
What a shame that science doesn't conform to your layman's expectations then. If you can't be bothered to cultivate the relevant understanding then that's your problem.

It always is to people who don't know the first thing about science. Your disbelief and lack of understanding makes no odds to the reality of science, however.

I am willing to learn.
Please explain how the science of acoustics accounts for 10 out of 11 people on the grassy knoll who's testimony included direction of the shots stating the reports came from directly behind them, if the shots came from the 6th floor TSBD window say 100-200 feet away?

Then explain to me why there was not testimony that claimed shots coming from Dal-Tex, the Police, the Court or the Terminal Annex building to the south.

Or how Williams, Norman or Jarmin with warehouse windows open, could not tell that the shots came from the next floor up, 12 feet away or why Victoria Adams /&/Sandra Styles (No testimony) /&/ Elsie Dorman (No testimony) /&/ May Garner (No testimony) on the 4th floor, 3rd set of windows over said the shots came from the knoll.

How did the acoustics fool the "50" police that rushed to the knoll and rail yards where as no police went to the TSBD except Baker who went there only because of Pigeons flying off the roof.

Get a little tired of this scientific rhetoric being used as a shield against every measure of reasonable sense.






Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #941 on: June 02, 2012, 09:30:31 PM »
Don't ask that question as if it's the first time. You have been told over and over and over again what you need to elaborate on. You have been asked over and over again what your alternaitve is, and how you support that with evidence. Just answer the questions that have been posed instead of playing games.
Since no one has given a definitive answer as to what evidence actually is, apparently none can be acceptable.
There can be no evidence to support my theories, then why would I share a narrative, by your own definition, it can never have acceptable evidence in support ...just to accumulate additional ridicule from WC Report believers?

Offline gillianren

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #942 on: June 02, 2012, 09:37:48 PM »
The important word there is "rational," of course!  While Kennedy conspiracism is not inherently irrational
Interesting choice of words. When is it not inherently irrational?

I suppose JFK conspiracism could also be driven by simple ignorance of the facts. That would not necessarily be irrational. That what you mean?

That is pretty much exactly what I mean.  I don't think it's ever accurate, but the idea that the death of JFK must have been caused by a conspiracy is not an inherently irrational one; while the majority of both assassinations and assassination attempts in the US have been of the lone-nut variety, there have been a few conspiracies.  (Oddly, hardly anyone seems aware that John Wilkes Booth didn't act alone!)  I think the choices, however, are ignorant and irrational, and the majority are simply ignorant.  They've heard a few "facts" that they think indicate that it has to have been a conspiracy, claims that the Warren Commission has failed in some way, and they simply don't know that those claims are not based on evidence.  It's not irrational, because it's not denying evidence.  It is ignorant, because it's unaware of evidence.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #943 on: June 02, 2012, 10:11:41 PM »
Profmunkin has had ample opportunity to make his case.  We should enforce this simple requirement on him to back up his statements before he is allowed to carry on further.
I would welcome the challenge to back up any claim I have made concerning testimony.
I thought I had been quoting and documenting as posted, but obviously it has been insufficient.

Please let me know what points I need to document and elaborate on.

On top of several instances that have been documented as selective quoting, the major problem with your presentation is your refusal to tell us, or even acknowledge, that what you say is an interpretation of the testimony and other information that you have brought forward.   It is this interpretation that is in question and your acknowledged lack of relevant experience to make the interpretation and draw conclusions that is the problem.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #944 on: June 02, 2012, 11:41:19 PM »
It always is to people who don't know the first thing about science. Your disbelief and lack of understanding makes no odds to the reality of science, however.
I am willing to learn.

I don't believe you. I've seen you reject evidence, such as witnesses who saw Lee Oswald with his gun, simply because it conflicts with your beliefs. That doesn't show a willingness to learn. I've seen you reject the laws of physics that make the grassy knoll an impossible source of the gunshots the killed JFK and wounded Governor Connally. You are not willing to learn.

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Please explain how the science of acoustics accounts for 10 out of 11 people on the grassy knoll who's testimony included direction of the shots stating the reports came from directly behind them, if the shots came from the 6th floor TSBD window say 100-200 feet away?

I'll try to make this as simple as possible. All of the witnesses were human, and all humans (regardless of their professional training) are prone to the same difficulty in locating the source of loud quick sounds like gunshots, especially in locations that produce echoes. So why is it strange to you that so many witnesses were fooled by echoes?

Why are you relying on ear-witness testimony when there were eye-witnesses who saw Lee Oswald with the gun in the 6th floor window of the School Book Depository? Why do you reject reliable eye-witness testimony in favour of far less reliable ear-witness testimony?

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Then explain to me why there was not testimony that claimed shots coming from Dal-Tex, the Police, the Court or the Terminal Annex building to the south.

I'm not an expert on acoustics, but I suspect that the strongest echoes would have come from the area where the gun was pointed. So it makes sense to me that if the gunman was in TSBD and aiming up Elm St., then the echoes would have come from that area... which just happened to be in the general direction of the grassy knoll. Weaker echoes would have come from other directions, but the strongest and earliest echoes would have come from there. Anyone who localized the source of the gunshot based on the sound alone could have been fooled into believing the shots were coming from the grassy knoll instead of TSBD. Likewise, I think if the gunman had been at the grassy knoll, there would have been more people saying the shots were coming from TSBD because the echoes would have been coming from the buildings at that end of Elm St.

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How did the acoustics fool the "50" police that rushed to the knoll and rail yards where as no police went to the TSBD except Baker who went there only because of Pigeons flying off the roof.

The difficulty in localizing sounds is caused by human anatomy, it doesn't matter if the witnesses were automobile mechanics, nurses, police officers, or secret service agents, they would all be subject to the same difficulty in localizing sounds. It is not something that training can overcome.

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Get a little tired of this scientific rhetoric being used as a shield against every measure of reasonable sense.

You and DAKDAK should form a club or something. Your anti-science, anti-education bias is something you both have in common.
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