JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[twik]

Just so we're clear - profmunkin, your position is that there were two separate shots from the rear, one of which hit Kennedy, one which hit Connally?

Can you, then, indicate how the bullet that struck Kennedy complete missed Connally, and vice versa?

It is very well to debate "anomalies", but anomalies don't make a case. You need to provide evidence of two possible bullet paths that are more likely than the official one. It's no good saying that the official path isn't possible, if no other trajectories are more possible.

[Echnaton]

Warning:  Gory details which some people might prefer to not read.

They certainly are and I certainly would have preferred not to read them.  But the dead is done and it was necessary to better understand the evidence.  Just don't ask me to watch Saving Private Ryan again. 

[profmunkin]

What do you do with evidence like this from WC testimony Police Officer Joe Marshall Smith
 
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Ask why the majority of Americans know that the assassination was a conspiracy, it is facts like this and hundreds to thousands more that resonate true and are in opposition to the governments official version.

[profmunkin]

This is interesting from Gentlemen Jim Marrs 'Crossfire'

Richard Carr, a steelworker who saw a heavyset man on the sixth-floor of the [Texas School Book] Depository minutes before the shooting [of President Kennedy], saw two men run from either inside or from behind the Texas School Book Depository minutes after the assassination.

He claimed the men got into a Nash Rambler station wagon facing north on the west side of Houston Street by the east side of the Depository.  He said the wagon left in such a hurry one of its doors was still open.  He last saw the station wagon speeding north on Houston.

[profmunkin]

Mark Lane says 2 unknown men came running out of the TSBD, were stopped by police, they showed the police secret service credentials and were released.

The secret service stated the only secret service personell in Dealey Plaza were with the motorcade.

[profmunkin]

President Truman December 22, 1963 (1 month to the day)
http://www.maebrussell.com/Prouty/Harry%20Truman%27s%20CIA%20article.html

Says the CIA out of control and has become a danger to the country

Whitehouse had warned of a coup by the CIA thru Arthur Krock Otober 3, 1963

[profmunkin]

Well, let's see.  The building overlooked the motorcade route, and strong evidence showed that shots were fired from it.  In fact, policemen were inside the building within less than fifteen minutes. 

Immediately after the shots were fired
Over 50 policemen and over one hundred citizens were searching the grassy knoll and railyards where some testified seeing the snipers, some the smoke and others heard the report from the rifle.
And after they had finished searching the railyard and arresting 3 men (never officially identified)  The police turned their attention to the TSBD and the Dal-Tex building.

One Policeman ran immediately into the TSBD (what a coincidence that the
person officier Marrion Baker located was Lee Harvey Oswald, on the second floor, casually strolling in a side room drinking some pop AND this policeman "knows" the shots came from the 6th floor just seconds ago, but he STOPS to identify a person strolling in the lunchroom on the second floor)
Can't shoot a patsy when they are not where they were supposed to be.
No wonder Jack Ruby looks perplexed in the photograph taken later out front of the TSBD.

[Jason Thompson]

Your refusal to address the objective points like bullet trajectories and instead focus on subjectives like who says they saw what from where and what people may or may not have done in the immediate aftermath of the shooting speaks volumes here, prof. What have you to say, for instance, to the questions about how two men in extremely close proximity were hit with two bullets that failed entirely to strike the other man, or the physics of the effect of a bullet blasting a chunk out of someone's head? Nothing?

[Echnaton]

Assuming that all this is accurately reported, you are once again shifting the burden of proof.  Please put these statement in the context of all evidence and tell us why you have put such a high weight on them in your coming to a decision that there was a conspiracy.  And also please explain your weighing of the evidence as compared to other investigations and why yours is better.  That is what a competent investigator would do. 

This "smoking gun" thinking is really getting tedious.

[Echnaton]

No wonder Jack Ruby looks perplexed in the photograph taken later out front of the TSBD.

You have this uncanny knack of reading a vast conspiracy from the look of a man's face in a photo, do you?

[twik]

Well, let's see.  The building overlooked the motorcade route, and strong evidence showed that shots were fired from it.  In fact, policemen were inside the building within less than fifteen minutes. 

Immediately after the shots were fired
Over 50 policemen and over one hundred citizens were searching the grassy knoll and railyards where some testified seeing the snipers, some the smoke and others heard the report from the rifle.
And after they had finished searching the railyard and arresting 3 men (never officially identified)  The police turned their attention to the TSBD and the Dal-Tex building.

One Policeman ran immediately into the TSBD (what a coincidence that the
person officier Marrion Baker located was Lee Harvey Oswald, on the second floor, casually strolling in a side room drinking some pop AND this policeman "knows" the shots came from the 6th floor just seconds ago, but he STOPS to identify a person strolling in the lunchroom on the second floor)
Can't shoot a patsy when they are not where they were supposed to be.
No wonder Jack Ruby looks perplexed in the photograph taken later out front of the TSBD.

[twik]

They went to the Depository because the majority of witnesses who had any idea where the shots came from identified that as the source. Why on earth should it take more than 15 minutes for some of the police force to go there?

As I'm trying to figure out what your theory is, how could the conspiracy have assumed Oswald, the patsy, was "supposed" to be on the 6th floor? If he had nothing to do with the shooting, he could have been anywhere in the building, just as any other employee could have been with him the entire time.

[profmunkin]

I understand the notion that evidence must be vetted before it should be regarded for consideration, however an impasse is immediately reached in a discussion on JFK assassination if the only evidence deemed admissible is that which has undergone processing through government agencies.
A discussion on conspiracy is not possible if evidences of a conspiracy are inadmissible as evidence.
By its very nature, a discussion on conspiracy must take the form where official evidence is challenged for its sustainability when examined within the field of known facts.

[gillianren]

Ask why the majority of Americans know that the assassination was a conspiracy, it is facts like this and hundreds to thousands more that resonate true and are in opposition to the governments official version.

No, the majority of Americans believe it was a conspiracy.  But so what?  Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it right.  What makes it right or wrong is what can be shown, based on the evidence, to be true.  Sure, go ahead and challenge the official evidence.  That's great; that's science.  But do so in a way that shows some understanding of how evidence works.  Learn the weight that should be given to eyewitness testimony.  Learn how to analyze photographs and examine autopsy reports.  Don't just cite conspiracy theorists, because they've never done that, either.  One major CT who claims to was basically laughed out of hearings because of how ignorant he in fact turns out to be, yet the man is still a major figure in Kennedy conspiracy theory circles.  What does that tell you about their reliability?

[Chew]

Immediately after the shots were fired
Over 50 policemen

Over 50 policemen? Citation needed.

and over one hundred citizens were searching the grassy knoll

And not one of your alleged +150 saw anything suspicious.

and railyards where some testified seeing the snipers,

No one ever testified to seeing a sniper, let alone multiple snipers, on the grassy knoll.

some the smoke and others heard the report from the rifle.

The majority of people thought the shots came from the TSBD. The vast majority of people heard 2 or 3 shots. Only a few people thought they heard 4 or more.

And after they had finished searching the railyard and arresting 3 men (never officially identified)

Incorrect. The 3 tramps were identified. Their arrest records were lost and found years later.

  The police turned their attention to the TSBD and the Dal-Tex building.

Yes. Because several eyewitnesses told the police they saw a sniper in a window in the TSBD.

One Policeman ran immediately into the TSBD (what a coincidence that the
person officier Marrion Baker located was Lee Harvey Oswald, on the second floor, casually strolling in a side room drinking some pop AND this policeman "knows" the shots came from the 6th floor just seconds ago, but he STOPS to identify a person strolling in the lunchroom on the second floor)

What exactly are you insinuating here? Don't be coy. Spell it out. Are accusing Marion Baker of being a part of the conspiracy?

Can't shoot a patsy when they are not where they were supposed to be.

So you claim you can't shoot a patsy when they are not supposed to be where they are supposed to be, but it's perfectly OK to shoot him in a police station surrounded by police officers, reporters, photographers, and cameramen! Your lack of self-awareness of what you write is stunning. Hopefully some day you'll realize your requirements for a conspiracy are a million times more wacky than the lone gunman theory.

No wonder Jack Ruby looks perplexed in the photograph taken later out front of the TSBD.

Picture needed.