JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[ka9q]

The answer should be equal effect, if all of the bullets momentum is transferred to the head.

The only effect that will be equal for a given bullet momentum and target mass is the momentum of the entire target+bullet after the bullet hits and embeds itself in it. The effect of the bullet on the target can vary quite a bit depending on the size, velocity and makeup of the bullet and the nature of the target. That's because the damage to the target is done by the bullet's energy, not its momentum. That energy ultimately ends up as heat.

Were did you see the videos of unconcious people with their heads hanging free getting shot in the head with a high powered rifle? Please post the url.

I was talking only about those things that absolutely must happen according to the laws of physics, whether the target is a human head or a block of wood. Conservation of momentum doesn't care.

However, in the 2005 book "The JFK Myths" by Larry Sturdivan, page 169 shows a famous picture of a man being shot through the head during the Spanish Civil War in 1936.  When hit the man had been squatting on the ground, but in the picture he almost appears to be sitting on an invisible chair, with his rear end off the ground, his legs almost straight and his arms outstretched. Sturdivan explains that this was due to a massive neuromuscular spasm similar to the one that happened to JFK when he was hit in the head.

[Jason Thompson]

The answer should be equal effect, if all of the bullets momentum is transferred to the head.

What does 'equal effect' even mean?

This is your problem: you can't talk about the technical aspects in appropriate language.

Now, since all the bullet's momentum clearly was not transferred to the head, what exactly is your point?

Were did you see the videos of unconcious people with their heads hanging free getting shot in the head with a high powered rifle?

Ah, the typical complaint of the layman: you haven't seen it exactly duplicated, therefore your conclusions are invalid. Bull. Science doesn't care if you use a head, a melon, a human or a goat. The physics applies equally well in all cases.

What I have seen: film from the two world wars including people being shot in various parts of the body; experiments involving shooting live animals; experiments involving shooting other objects, including human skulls with ballistics gel material to represent skin and brain tissue; experiments involving shooting objects with various weapons to determine how much momentum gets transferred from the bullet to the target. Now explain to me why the conclusions drawn from those are invalid.

Please post the url.

Ah, the typical complaint of the internet troll.

Would it really surprise you to learn that I didn't actually see these things online, but on television shows, DVDs, or published books and papers describing the effects? I don't happen to have an url to give you. Explain to me why that invalidates the argument.

Also, exlpain to me why you have suddenly gone very quiet about the ability of a human to localise sounds like rifle shots now you have been given personal experiences and proper explanations. Did you think we wouldn't notice your change of horse?

[Jason Thompson]

Your probably correct, so for this experiment lets hold the gun an inch or so away from your head, lets let it get a little momentum built up before it knocks you sensless.

And you still don't understand why this is irrelevant, do you? The stock is a large flat surface travelling at relatively low speed, the bullet is a small, pointed object designed to penetrate flesh and bone travelling at extremely high (as in supersonic) speed. One will knock you senseless, one will blow a hole through your head.

[Mr Gorsky]

profmunkin, read this from Intuitor's Insultingly Stupid Movie Physics page ...

It's Not Newton's 3rd Law

Contrary to the explanations given in some venues, the fact that shooting victims are not thrown violently backwards by bullet impact forces cannot be explained using Newton's 3rd law. These explanations usually claim that the recoil force on the shooter is an action/reaction pair with the bullet impact force on the victim—simply not true.

Action/reaction pairs of forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. They occur simultaneously. While the recoil and bullet impact forces are opposite in direction they do not occur simultaneously. The recoil force begins before the bullet strikes the target. It is generally lower in magnitude than the bullet impact force but lasts for a longer time.

This doesn't necessarily address the point you are making directly, but it serves to emphasise, in conjunction with the other answers you have received, and mostly ignored, here, that there is a lot of physics involved with the behaviour of gun, bullet, shooter and victim that cannot be simply described in a soundbite as you seem to expect.

[Abaddon]

Here ya go prof.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Sniperatwork.jpg
Yes, that is a real road sign. "sniper at work".
Yes, it really happened.
Yes, snipers can do extreme damage.
Barret 50 was the weapon of choice. That will take a leg off at about  2 km.
I do not need to imagine whatever you invent, I have seen the reality.
Google the "south armagh sniper".
Here, have a wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Armagh_Sniper_(1990%E2%80%931997)
Yup, I know a lot more than you about sniping.

[profmunkin]

Which bullet hit Tague?

Any one know where I may find an FBI or Police photo of the cement that shows the gouge and it's direction?

[profmunkin]

Has anyone viewed the Warren Commission Report to see how many breaks in rational actions and plausible projections it contains?

If you see many, let us talk

If you can't see any, seriously dude you need help.

[Abaddon]

Which bullet hit Tague?

Any one know where I may find an FBI or Police photo of the cement that shows the gouge and it's direction?

Clearly, you do not comprehend the concept of fragmentation.

[Abaddon]

Has anyone viewed the Warren Commission Report to see how many breaks in rational actions and plausible projections it contains?

Yup.

If you see many, let us talk

Nope, but you are unwilling to discuss same in any meaningful way.

If you can't see any, seriously dude you need help.

Physician, heal thyself.

[twik]

The answer should be equal effect, if all of the bullets momentum is transferred to the head.

IF.

A bullet is not like a weight in a Newton's Cradle. It doesn't hit the skull, transfer all its momentum to the head, and drop to the ground. It penetrates, and continues, with most of its momentum preserved.

[ka9q]

Which bullet hit Tague?

It was most likely a fragment of Oswald's third shot, the one that hit JFK in the back of the head and destroyed his brain. Having traveled less than 100 m, the bullet still had most of its original energy and was flying very stably. When it hit JFK's skull, it decelerated so quickly that the resulting force exceeded the compressive strength of the bullet and it began to disintegrate. The fragments moved through JFK's brain, leaving small bits of metal along the track that were seen in X-ray during autopsy. I think, but would have to check, that several of these fragments were recovered during the autopsy.

Two large fragments were found in the front of the limousine. Their total mass was much less than the mass of the original bullet so there were obviously many others. These two fragments were definitively matched to Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons, and neutron activation analysis later showed them to be part of the same bullet. They apparently exited JFK's head near the right frontal sinus. At least one hit the inside of the windshield, cracking it but not puncturing it as an intact, full-energy bullet would have done.

One bullet fragment from JFK's head, apparently consisting entirely of lead from the bullet's core, continued downrange. It grazed the corner of a curb on Main St and left a streak of lead without actually chipping the concrete. It apparently continued until it struck James Tague in the face, wounding him slightly.

The object that struck the curb could only have been a bullet fragment. An intact bullet would have broken the concrete and left traces of jacket metal (copper/zinc), not just lead. Had an intact bullet hit Tague, even one that had ricocheted off the curb, he would have been wounded far more seriously than he was.

[profmunkin]

One bullet fragment from JFK's head, apparently consisting entirely of lead from the bullet's core, continued downrange. It grazed the corner of a curb on Main St and left a streak of lead without actually chipping the concrete. It apparently continued until it struck James Tague in the face, wounding him slightly.

Is all this conjecture or is there any proof?

There is or is or is there ain't official pictures available?

[profmunkin]

It penetrates, and continues, with most of its momentum preserved.

one possible scenario, another is, bullet strikes a bone and transfers completely all of its momentum to the bone and surrounding tissue.

[profmunkin]

Clearly, you do not comprehend the concept of fragmentation.

Yea yea I get it
I thought a concrete fragment nicked Tague.
How is it you know that a piece of lead that hit Teague, and where is the official evidence of the mark on the curb?
Is there a laboratory report on the analysis of the nick on Teague's cheek?

[Ranb]

profmunkin,

You really need to educate yourself just a little bit about firearms and ballistics.  There is no way you are going to be able to determine how much a body will move when hit by a bullet unless you know how much energy is transferred to it upon impact.  You will need to know the change in mass and velocity as it passes through.

Bullet kinetic energy is calculated by multiplying half the weight (in slugs or grams) by the square of the speed (in feet per second or meters per second)  A 162 grain (10.4 grams) bullet moving 2200 fps gives us about 1741 ft-lbs of energy.

Determining how much a rifle kicks is more difficult.  Look here; http://kwk.us/recoil.html

Fill in the values for the Carcano and we get a recoil velocity of about 9 fps and energy of 9 ft-lbs.

Ranb