Hardware tests

[Dr.Acula]

Some days ago I was involved in a debate with two HBs. One of them asked me, why NASA never had launched probes with animals to the Moon, similar to the sowjet Zond 5. Because NASA did not do this, Apollo must be faked. 

My response to him was: Probes with animals didn't deliver enough data about the environment. Probes with several kinds of sensors can provide actual data about kind of radiation, dosis, flux etc.

The other HB said, the LM ascent stage wasn't tested on Moon. I've heard that one of the Surveyor probes did an ascent on the lunar surface, without launching but getting back to the surface.

Now I want to know: Is my response about the probes accurate? And can anybody tell me about this test with the Surveyor probe?

[Echnaton]

From the Wikipedia article

Surveyor 6 was the first spacecraft planned to lift off from the Moon's surface. Surveyor 3 was the first spacecraft to unintentionally liftoff from the Moon's surface, which it did twice, due to an anomaly with Surveyor's Landing Radar which did not shut off the vernier engines but kept them firing throughout the first touchdown, and after it. Apollo 12's Lunar Module Intrepid landed 600 feet from Surveyor 3, as planned. Surveyor 3's TV and telemetry systems were found to have been damaged by its unplanned landings and liftoffs.

The other HB said, the LM ascent stage wasn't tested on Moon.

The answer is, "why should it have been?"  What would have been learned that wasn't already know from ground tests and the the previous two flight tests?  Apollo 11 was a test flight and every test flight program has an initial landing and takeoff. 

[Bryanpoprobson]

In a further test of space technology, Surveyor 6's engines were restarted and burned for 2.5 seconds in the first lunar liftoff on November 17 at 10:32 UTC. This created 150 lbf (700 N) of thrust and lifted the vehicle 12 feet (4 m) from the lunar surface. After moving west 8 feet, (2.5 m) the spacecraft once again successfully soft landed and continued functioning as designed.

From the Surveyor 6 wiki article.

[Bryanpoprobson]

The answer is, "why should it have been?"  What would have been learned that wasn't already know from ground tests and the the previous two flight tests?  Apollo 11 was a test flight and every test flight program has an initial landing and takeoff.

This is one of expattwatty's favourite circular arguments. Even a 747 or Concorde had a maiden take off and landings, there has to be a first time for all these things. But the LM was a first in that it was purely designed for work in a vacuum and a 1/6 G environment.

Another favourite is to get photographs from the LOLA project and claim this is how NASA faked the video of the Lunar Landings.

[Dr.Acula]

From the Wikipedia article

Surveyor 6 was the first spacecraft planned to lift off from the Moon's surface. Surveyor 3 was the first spacecraft to unintentionally liftoff from the Moon's surface, which it did twice, due to an anomaly with Surveyor's Landing Radar which did not shut off the vernier engines but kept them firing throughout the first touchdown, and after it. Apollo 12's Lunar Module Intrepid landed 600 feet from Surveyor 3, as planned. Surveyor 3's TV and telemetry systems were found to have been damaged by its unplanned landings and liftoffs.

The other HB said, the LM ascent stage wasn't tested on Moon.

The answer is, "why should it have been?"  What would have been learned that wasn't already know from ground tests and the the previous two flight tests?  Apollo 11 was a test flight and every test flight program has an initial landing and takeoff.

Thank you, this was the deatil I've been looking for 

And you're right, my answer was similar to your counterquestion and to fact, that Apollo 11 was the final test. But I wanted to have some solid arguments, that the ascend procedure was known.

[Dr.Acula]

In a further test of space technology, Surveyor 6's engines were restarted and burned for 2.5 seconds in the first lunar liftoff on November 17 at 10:32 UTC. This created 150 lbf (700 N) of thrust and lifted the vehicle 12 feet (4 m) from the lunar surface. After moving west 8 feet, (2.5 m) the spacecraft once again successfully soft landed and continued functioning as designed.

From the Surveyor 6 wiki article.

Thanks a lot, this was the detail I've been looking for. 

[Luke Pemberton]

Apollo 11 was a test flight and every test flight program has an initial landing and takeoff.

Exactly. Had the LM failed while attempting the moon it would have been like any other test flight that had failed, except for the rather morbid scenario that Neil and Buzz would not have been recovered.

[Trebor]

The other HB said, the LM ascent stage wasn't tested on Moon.

Don't forget Apollo 10. (Many people do)

[Noldi400]

Apollo 11 was a test flight and every test flight program has an initial landing and takeoff.

Exactly. Had the LM failed while attempting the moon it would have been like any other test flight that had failed, except for the rather morbid scenario that Neil and Buzz would not have been recovered.

The whole world was watching, which would have made it (ascent failure) a major event, but test flight is by its nature a dangerous profession. I don't remember the exact number, but several pilots lost their lives over the high desert while we were trying to figure out hypersonic aerodynamics.

[Dr.Acula]

Don't forget Apollo 10. (Many people do)

I know what you mean, but this wasn't meant by the HB. He was insisting, that there hadn't been any launch test of the ascent stage from the lunar surface. But he (and me either) didn't know about Surveyor 6.

[onebigmonkey]

And also Apollo 5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_5

Other people have already said as much, but really you can test and test in any environment you like, sooner or later the only way to test if an astronaut can land on the moon is land an astronaut on the moon. Likewise returning him safely to Earth.

[Glom]

Ask him what part of "test pilot" he doesn't understand.

[Dr.Acula]

Ask him what part of "test pilot" he doesn't understand.

It seems, this person doesn't know anything about the astronauts. The only important thing for him is, that all were active or former airforce pilots. I asked him about Jack Schmitt, he hasn't been aware that Schmitt was a scientist. That's the well known HBs' research skill. 

[Allan F]

Ask him what part of "test pilot" he doesn't understand.

It seems, this person doesn't know anything about the astronauts. The only important thing for him is, that all were active or former airforce pilots. I asked him about Jack Schmitt, he hasn't been aware that Schmitt was a scientist. That's the well known HBs' research skill. 

If they had research skills, their hoax belief should come crashing down due to cognitive dissonance.

[Dr.Acula]

If they had research skills, their hoax belief should come crashing down due to cognitive dissonance.

I couldn't say it better.