Author Topic: What's with this ISIS buisness?  (Read 39338 times)

Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2015, 04:48:23 AM »
I think there might be some joke here that I'm not quite getting, but if so, you can enlighten my slow-witted brain at such time as may be convenient for you.
Yes, it was. Sorry about that, since I don't even know what country you're in, but I had to try.

I'm referring to a recurring character named Luther played by the comedian Keegan-Michael Key on the Key & Peele sketch comedy show on the Comedy Central channel. Key's partner, Jordan Peele, does a deadly Obama impersonation, and they have a routine going where "Obama" delivers some dry "fireside television chat" to the nation and Luther, his "anger translator" repeats it for the audience as Obama would really like to say it but can't because he's President. Luther screams, jumps, runs around the set and practically melts down by the end of each sketch. "Obama" just sits there passively, only occasionally roping Luther back in when he gets too far out of hand.

It can be hysterically funny, and the bit got a big boost when the real Obama appeared on a talk show and said he liked it.

I believe this is the first time they did this sketch. Hopefully you can watch it wherever you are.

sure very funny videos :)
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Offline Luther

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2015, 04:55:49 AM »
Good. Youtube (like a lot of commercial sites) often try to restrict their stuff to specific countries. Of course, anybody who knows how to use a proxy can always get around it.

Well, sometimes.  If I know about a particular proxy, odds are, the Chinese government knows about it as well :(

Offline Peter B

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2015, 05:35:40 AM »
I don't think we disagree quite so much. Yes, it took time for ISIS to appear on the scene because even the US needed a lot of time and effort to screw things up so badly as to make them possible. But it was all perfectly predictable from the biggest screwup of them all: Bush invading Iraq.

And no, he can't blame it on the CIA. Richard Clarke, the counter-terrorism 'czar' at the time, told us that within hours of the 9/11 attacks, Bush, Cheney et al dismissed his opinion out of hand that it had all the hallmarks of al Qaeda, and to go away and come back with "proof" that Saddam did it. When Clarke and the CIA couldn't do that, Bush et al told them to come back with "proof" of Saddam's WMD. One way or another, Bush and Cheney were going to invade Iraq and they weren't going to let mere facts stand in their way. We all know how that went. And now we're living with the results.

Saddam was far, far from being a saint, but he ran one of the few secular governments in the region. He'd be the last to tolerate Muslim terrorists (Sunni or Shiite) on his turf, or cooperate with them anywhere (which was why the accusations of his supporting al Qaeda were so ludicrous). Remember he attacked Iran not long after their theocratic revolution, and that instantly made him our best buddy even though we knew perfectly well he was using chemical weapons. There's a famous picture of him shaking hands with Donald Rumsfeld. He didn't fall out of our good graces until he invaded Kuwait and threatened to monopolize the oil supply. That would have been an intolerable assault on freedom and democracy.

Having already stomped every last dinner plate and drinking glass in that particular china shop into dust, we now seem to think that if we just send a few more bulls over there, they'll eventually stomp it all back into fine dinnerware. Experience (and some critical rather than wishful thinking) would seem to indicate otherwise.

Yes, I think that's an analysis I can agree with. I've remained ambivalent about whether the invasion was the right thing to do, both in itself and in a larger context. One point I remember a commentator saying somewhere was that Saddam's regime had been providing a lot of funding to Palestinian groups launching attacks on targets in Israel, and that overthrowing it put an end to that funding. However I accept now that this would be a very minor benefit when set against the problems caused by the invasion. Another point was that removing the regime gave democracy a chance in Iraq, though one of the counters to that argument was that the USA made no attempt to do the same thing with other undemocratic countries around the world (for example North Korea...).
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Offline Peter B

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2015, 05:51:32 AM »
I am currently listing to a podcast on the history of Byzantium.  Among the interesting and relevant parts are recent episodes that chronicle the rise of the Arab state and the swift conquering of Syria and Egypt from the Romans.  Areas the Empire had held for centuries and whose loss led inexorably to the fall of Constantinople. 

Among the topics covered are:
A discussion of what made for power in the region, it was whoever had the standing army in the field. 
The tribalism and religious fractures that disaffected people from there governors, whose presence offered stability, and made them welcome new rulers despite the uncertain terms of the new rule.
The co-opting of the then still vague Mohamedian religion into medieval Islam by building a back story designed to legitimize and bless the military regime that wound up in control decades later. 


History repeats itself because people, in aggregate are the same as we have always been. 
It is enlightening to see how the same trends are playing out with ISIS.

I've long had an interest in Byzantine history (thanks to my interest in wargaming), and so followed the link.

In the context of your comments above about the 7th century collapse of Byzantine power in Egypt and Syria, I was about to recommend Tom Holland's "In the Shadow of the Sword" when I saw that one of the earlier episodes was an interview with Holland.

Oh well, I'll recommend the book anyway. Holland is a superb writer, and the points he makes in ITSOTS suggest a subtly different origin for Islam than I was familiar with. The key thing for me is that he doesn't speculate much. Instead the story he tells is firmly grounded in the work of (Western) academics relying on archaeological and textual evidence.

(And Holland's other books are fascinating reads too.)
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Offline ka9q

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2015, 06:38:57 AM »
sure very funny videos :)
Absolutely. My favorites so far:

Many (though not all) of the Obama/Luther sketches, especially "Obama Shutdown" when Michelle and Malia get their own translators.
The first and third substitute teacher sketches
Alien imposters
Suburban zombies
Das Negroes
Little Homie
Killing an African Warlord
Slow Brotion
Text message confusion

They do have a lot of running gags that require you to be familiar with previous skits.


 

Offline Echnaton

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2015, 07:37:35 AM »

by the way what do you all think about the new map for the middle east that was brought about?http://mtv.com.lb/en/News/257940

The map of the Middle East is ever changing.   There is little reason to think this particular vision will come to reality or if  it does, the boundaries will stay for long. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline ka9q

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2015, 07:46:11 AM »
It's certainly different now than before WW1, that's for sure.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2015, 07:54:05 AM »
Instead the story he tells is firmly grounded in the work of (Western) academics relying on archaeological and textual evidence.



That is what appeals to me about him.  It is also the major criticism I've read of his work.  He is, according to these critics, is a westerner that ignores "traditional" sources, etc.  His take on the origins of Islam, in the podcast, was revelatory to me because I hadn't read much about the subject.  But as he points out, the idea that a group of bickering desert tribes could suddenly put a history of hatred and fighting aside to join together and form an empire, simply lacks plausibility.  Without, that is, invoking divine intervention, as the Koran and other post event sources do.   At which point one is no longer doing history. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Echnaton

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2015, 08:19:20 AM »
Another point was that removing the regime gave democracy a chance in Iraq, though one of the counters to that argument was that the USA made no attempt to do the same thing with other undemocratic countries around the world (for example North Korea...).

Within the understanding that you are not personally making these points, I'd like to make a few comments. 


The notion that one country can make a democracy out another through violence is folly.  Much less in a place like Iraq that has never been a nation but rather has been an administrative district characterized by religious and ethnic strife.  The best that could reasonably have been hoped for was something similar to Egypt.  A less brutal secular military regime.   

The questioning of US actions in Iraq by saying "if that were the true motive then they would do the same in N. Korea" is little more than a polemical conspiracy theory.  It essentially puts an algebraic equal sign between the countries, Iraq=N. Korea that begs the question of absolute equality.  As we know the difference between countries are as subtle as they are vast and motives are never "pure" or unitary. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2015, 09:35:24 AM »


the Ninawa Museum 's time..not all are authentic as Iraqis are saying, but some are..civilization of thousands of years being destroyed by ISIS.. someone , anyone..do something..this is not the property of Iraq..it is the property of humanity
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Offline ka9q

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2015, 07:11:12 AM »
The notion that one country can make a democracy out another through violence is folly.
Absolutely. Of course, the people who claimed that we would never really believed it anyway.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2015, 12:23:18 PM »
The notion that one country can make a democracy out another through violence is folly.
Absolutely. Of course, the people who claimed that we would never really believed it anyway.

How much people who are advocating for a government position "really" believe it is an interesting question.  And one that is terribly difficult to answer because self reporting after the fact is unlikely to point to what people believed at the time.   Nor is evidence of a mixed feeling all that useful in determining a "real" belief, because there is always the need to play for the team, if you believe hat the overall goals of the team are right,even if one personally disagrees with some of them.  Neither of those positions is any more "real" than the other. 

So there is always some degree of personal uncertainty in any organizational representative.  Nevertheless, the bogus idea was used to market defective goods.   And more importantly enough people believed the marketing, bought the goods and enjoyed them for many years. While a bunch of other people got killed by them.  If this were a car manufacturer, the president of the company would be in jail.  But governments hold themselves to a different standard. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2017, 09:54:27 AM »
In few days, ISIS will be wiped off iraq..aleppo in syria is free of them too.
Is this after pressuring qatar? Most probably so. The question is: why until now to pressure qatar? What price did Trump get to us rid of ISIS?
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Offline Glom

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2017, 11:15:52 AM »
The battle to liberate Mosul has been raging for nine months. I don't think the development in the last few weeks vis a vis Qatar have been significant in this.

Offline LionKing

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Re: What's with this ISIS buisness?
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2017, 05:40:42 PM »
The battle to liberate Mosul has been raging for nine months. I don't think the development in the last few weeks vis a vis Qatar have been significant in this.

They have been fighting for months. Why now they succeeded? It was clear from what Trump said that pressuring Qatar will be very fruitful strategy in drying up resources of terror. Anyways, I hope the rotten fanatics disappear with their atrocities. I am, however, concerned about the syrian situation that Assad won the game under the propaganda that he is fighting terror..and that as usual he manages to go out unscathed..and that the true, free syrian people would be oppressed again under his rule.
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Dispersing Israeli Myths