How different would things have been if.......

[Bryanpoprobson]

the Russians had succeeded in getting to the Moon first. I often think that the US regarded Apollo as merely a race, once won, the need and drive had vanished. If the Russians had won the race to the, moon would they have had more incentive for further missions and to build Lunar Bases, would NASA have been forced to follow suit?

An additional comment, I noticed in an archived post, that Jay had mentioned an investigation into spies in the US space program. Was anything ever dug up about that? What a great thing to throw at hoax believers, the fact that the USSR had spies in a position to verify the authenticity of Apollo.
   

[Echnaton]

Build a moon base? When we hadn't even gotten to the moon?   How long would it have take to design a habitat and a new lander that could stay on the surface that long?  How many Saturn V launches would building a moon base take?  With a president that was not NASA budget friendly?  As you can guess, my opinion is that the US would not have built a base.

Most likely is NASA would have continued on with the same program.   Because the hardware was better the emphasis would have been to do science just as NASA did anyway.  Full tilt better than one or two skimpy Russian one man "touch and go" landings.  Because it seem unlikely they could have put together anything approaching an  Apollo scale scientific exploration program.

[Peter B]

There's an Australian sci fi magazine called "Andromeda Spaceways Inflight Magazine". In one of its earlier editions it had a story about a Soviet lunar landing mission which replaces Luna 15, and just makes it to the Moon ahead of Apollo 11. The author knew his stuff, using appropriate technology (and throwing in realistic problems for the technology!).

In the story the upshot of the Soviet success is - actually I don't remember, but either the Americans or the Soviets commit to a manned landing on Mars...

[ka9q]

I often think that the US regarded Apollo as merely a race, once won, the need and drive had vanished.

This isn't just your opinion, it's an established fact. To Congress and most of the public, Apollo was simply a race with the Russians.

It's interesting that the Russians kept trying until the mid 1970s, when they finally gave up after a 0-3 record in test flights of the N1. Then they denied they were ever in the race in the first place, a pretty transparent lie that wasn't officially acknowledged until the USSR fell apart.

[JayUtah]

Kennedy called James Webb into the Oval Office and reminded him that it was a race.  The President expressed concern about "scope creep" and admonished NASA to keep the project true to its "land a man on the Moon and return him safely to the Earth" roots.

However it's clear the U.S. and the Soviet Union took different approaches to winning.  The early Soviet space program was all about "firsts," even meaningless ones.  It could be somewhat grossly characterized as a set of publicity stunts, whereas NASA took a bit longer to engineer a system they thought would win.  Keep in mind Apollo started out before Kennedy as an infrastructure for exploring the solar system, and it was envisioned that it would do more than just land on the Moon.

[Bryanpoprobson]

Kennedy called James Webb into the Oval Office and reminded him that it was a race.  The President expressed concern about "scope creep" and admonished NASA to keep the project true to its "land a man on the Moon and return him safely to the Earth" roots.

However it's clear the U.S. and the Soviet Union took different approaches to winning.  The early Soviet space program was all about "firsts," even meaningless ones.  It could be somewhat grossly characterized as a set of publicity stunts, whereas NASA took a bit longer to engineer a system they thought would win.  Keep in mind Apollo started out before Kennedy as an infrastructure for exploring the solar system, and it was envisioned that it would do more than just land on the Moon.

Did you note my comment on the original post regarding "spies in the Apollo program?"

[smartcooky]

Kennedy called James Webb into the Oval Office and reminded him that it was a race.  The President expressed concern about "scope creep" and admonished NASA to keep the project true to its "land a man on the Moon and return him safely to the Earth" roots.

However it's clear the U.S. and the Soviet Union took different approaches to winning.  The early Soviet space program was all about "firsts," even meaningless ones.  It could be somewhat grossly characterized as a set of publicity stunts, whereas NASA took a bit longer to engineer a system they thought would win.

I've often heard it said that the Soviets were ahead in the "space race" and that gradually, the USA reined them in and overtook them, but I think the point about "meaningless firsts" belies that. Was there really a race to put the first satellite in orbit; was there really a race to put the first dog/chimp/man in space, or was it actually race to be first to do it properly and safely.

IMO, the USA was ahead in that last race from the get-go, and never relinquished it, although some might argue that they have now.

[ka9q]

Did you note my comment on the original post regarding "spies in the Apollo program?"

Why put spies in a program as open and public as Apollo?

Yes, I know that Apollo did have some important, short-lived secrets such as the initial decision to go all the way to the moon with Apollo 8. Numerous Apollo documents were once classified Confidential, but most were declassified in their entirety fairly quickly or just weren't all that relevant to the big picture of what Apollo was doing and where they were going. (The answer to that last one was pretty well known: the moon.)

I would have preferred no classification at all, but at least I get the impression that when classification was used in Apollo, it was generally intended to keep the Russians from directly applying its work to beating us in the race (and it was a race). I.e., unlike most government classification it wasn't intended to cover up misbehavior, incompetence or criminality.

[Echnaton]

Being the USSR, there would have been a interest in assuring the US space program was what it claimed to be and not a ruse to threaten to deliver the ultimate bomb on them. The Apollo program started less than a decade after the death of Stalin, one of the great paranoids in history.

[Bryanpoprobson]

The spy comment was in a thread I was reading on here, in the archives. Searching brings up too many results. Jay made the comment and promised a follow-up, I just wondered if there was.

Found it, it was on a thread in the archives called "Radio signals from the moon"

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/post/9410

[Bob B.]

I've often heard it said that the Soviets were ahead in the "space race" and that gradually, the USA reined them in and overtook them, but I think the point about "meaningless firsts" belies that. Was there really a race to put the first satellite in orbit; was there really a race to put the first dog/chimp/man in space, or was it actually race to be first to do it properly and safely.

IMO, the USA was ahead in that last race from the get-go, and never relinquished it, although some might argue that they have now.

The only reason the Soviets got out of the gate quicker than the Americans is because they had a big booster, the R-7, flying first.  The Americans only had small intermediate range missiles and couldn't match the Soviet's lift capability, thus were limited in the scope of missions they could fly.  Once the Atlas and Titan became fully operational the Americans quickly overtook the Soviets, surged ahead, and never looked back.  Even then the Atlas and Titan were smaller missiles than the R-7.  It wasn't until Saturn that the Americans had the bigger launch vehicle.

The Soviets had an early lead in lift capability, but it didn't have anything to do with them having a better space program.  It was born out of the military situation existing at the time.  The Americans had better bomb making technology and could produce less massive bombs.  They also had bases in Europe to stage their missiles.  The Americans also had a bigger and better bomber aircraft fleet.  All these things led to different strategies in terms of missile construction.  The Soviets had to have a big booster to carry their heavier bombs all the way to America from the Soviet Union, which led to the R-7.  The Americans didn't need anything that big.  Thus, when the two sides turned their military missiles into space launch vehicles, the Americans trailed.  The Saturn was the first large rocket designed and built from the beginning as a space launch vehicle.  Everything before that were re-purposed military missiles.

[Bryanpoprobson]

Even then the Americans could possibly have beat the Russians with the first satellite launch, if they had given Von Brauns Juno (Jupiter C derivative) rocket the nod. They actually expressly forbade Von Braun from attempting a satellite launch, giving priority to the Vanguard rocket instead. Von Braun stated that he could have launched a satellite as early as 1956 had he been given permission.

[JayUtah]

Von Braun was not yet an American citizen.  He was still a Nazi prisoner of war, for all intents and purposes.  There was enough objection to America's first satellite being launched by a "Nazi" rocket that Von Braun was essentially out of the loop until the embarrassment reached a critical point.  The joke goes that he pushed the Launch button before the ink was dry on his citizenship papers.

[raven]

What if Sergei Korolev had not died on the operating table? I doubt the USSR would have gotten there first, but would it be plausible they might have gotten there then?

[Glom]

Would he have been able to solve their metallurgy issue?