NASA photographic record of Manned Moonlanding:Is there evidence of fabrication?

[Dr.Acula]

Well, time to start a list, I guess...

Things Romulus does not understand.
1. Radiation
2. Perspective

User 74444 over at GLP did this before. IDW did not much like it there. He won't much like it here either.

Contributions welcome.

Nevertheless, you all must admit he is amusing.

Yes, he is. Not as amusing as Adrian, but that's only my taste of humor 

But this thread (or better to say these threads) has another important effect. I've learned more things about radiation in some hours only by reading the responses then my entire life.

By the way, thank you Jay, Bob, Luke and all the others.

[JayUtah]

Glad you made this comment as I was thinking about this on the way home tonight. I didn't give it much thought this morning through my conjunctivitis infected eyes, but 8 MeV is associated with gamma. What was his photon source, a synchrotron?

A "linear accelerator" (Dark Moon, p. 540).  No further information given.  In the spectral classification based on wavelength/energy, 8 MeV is well into the gamma band.  I.e., the sort of thing where you want to think about substantial thicknesses of steel and concrete to protect yourself while working around it.  A 25-rad absorbed dose of this is what Romulus characterizes as, "relatively low levels of radiation," and which he insinuates is the lunar surface environment.  Some devices classified as x-ray machines can generate energies above 100 keV, but those are for applications like looking for bombs in shipping containers.

[onebigmonkey]

Many of the early Soviet and American space probes used photographic film, such as Luna 3 and the Lunar Orbiter series.  The film was automatically processed on board the spacecraft, scanned, and then the scanned images were transmitted back to Earth.  The successful use of photographic film in space has a long history that goes well beyond Apollo.

Now there you go, see? This is why I love this forum. I never knew that; despite being in the photographic trade in one way or another over over a quarter of a century, and a space enthusiast since my teens.

I have learned something new today.

And this is why hoax believing and conspiracy theorist nutjobs will always be just that. They have no ability to learn. In fact, they reject learning, in favour of the BS they make up themselves out of whole cloth.

I have the entire collection in the form of an original 'Lunar Orbiter Photographic Atlas of the Moonm' (at a very good price I might add!), as well as another smaller book 'The moon as viewed by lunar orbiter', which has Farouk El Baz as co-author, is easy to find second hand and not too expensive. I'd recommend the latter as a budget purchase for any enthusiast of Apollo era space exploration

The images are remarkably free of defect, the only issues seemingly from problems in developing the film rather than radiation damage of any kind. The detail in some of the high resolution ones is extremely good (in some cases comparable with the LRO).

[Luke Pemberton]

Last I checked, we normalized x-ray measurements for this type of event to 100 seconds.  Is that the case?

They can be shorter, it all depends, but short durations of minutes is where the prominence becomes active in the x-ray spectrum, whereas the H-alpha emission can endure over hours due to filament heating of plasma in the magnetic field - the maths is horrible but is described by Vlasov's equation. I have some lecture notes in the attic, and they must be over 20 years old now.

As you know there is a leading spike on x-rays flare fluxes too, so the x-ray flux rise and falls as the plasma snaps back. The intensity of x-ray emission resembles a sawtooth.

[JayUtah]

The images are remarkably free of defect, the only issues seemingly from problems in developing the film rather than radiation damage of any kind.

Thanks for reminding me; I was going to mention that earlier.  The automated developer sometimes left streaks and droplets on the film, which have been interpreted by some as actual structures or anomalies on the lunar surface.  The Luna 3 system worked almost exactly the same way.

[Luke Pemberton]

A "linear accelerator" (Dark Moon, p. 540).  No further information given.

I can't think of a radionuclide that emits at 8 MeV. Na²⁴ is high at 2.76 MeV. So Groves used a LINAC to simulate the moon's radiation environment? Words fail me.

[Bob B.]

I have the entire collection in the form of an original 'Lunar Orbiter Photographic Atlas of the Moonm' (at a very good price I might add!), as well as another smaller book 'The moon as viewed by lunar orbiter', which has Farouk El Baz as co-author, is easy to find second hand and not too expensive. I'd recommend the latter as a budget purchase for any enthusiast of Apollo era space exploration

here is a nice online gallery of lunar orbiter photos:  http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/

[JayUtah]

They can be shorter, it all depends, but short durations of minutes is where the prominence becomes active in the x-ray spectrum...

Right, no question there.  But I recall that for comparison purposes among flares, the x-ray and gamma fluxes were integrated over 100 seconds in each band or channel so that flares of different strengths and durations could be compared according to spectrum.  I just wondered whether I was recalling this method correctly.

I have some lecture notes in the attic, and they must be over 20 years old now.

Ditto and ditto.

As you know there is a leading spike on x-rays flare fluxes too, so the x-ray flux rise and falls as the plasma snaps back. The x-ray emission resembles a sawtooth.

And not just any sawtooth -- big bang, sloping decay, big bang, sloping decay.  The higher the energy, the sawtoothier the graphs look.  In the 2-10 keV band, it's pretty flat until you hit a B- or C-class tantrum.

[Dr.Acula]

Another one for Romulus.
Does he really believe in special cameras to fool people about shadows? Or did I understand something wrong?

[JayUtah]

I can't think of a radionuclide that emits at 8 MeV. Na²⁴ is high at 2.76 MeV.

Well, yeah.  When I said 8 MeV was "well into the gamma band," I was being a tad droll -- the scale fundamentally stops at about 4 MeV.  The division of the spectrum into "discrete" bands by wavelength is a bit artificial.  For engineering purposes -- and I suppose for physics purposes too -- a qualitative reckoning works better.  X-rays are classified by how they're produced, and so are gamma rays -- produced by different processes.  So you can technically have an 8 MeV x-ray as long as it's produced by the same physical processes that produce other energies of x-ray.  But...

So Groves used a LINAC to simulate the moon's radiation environment? Words fail me.

...as well they should.  But then Groves is the kind of "scientist" who puts film in his oven to simulate the Moon's thermal environment.

[Luke Pemberton]

Right, no question there.  But I recall that for comparison purposes among flares, the x-ray and gamma fluxes were integrated over 100 seconds in each band or channel so that flares of different strengths and durations could be compared according to spectrum.  I just wondered whether I was recalling this method correctly.

I misunderstood your first question and see the point you are making now. I'd have to go and dig to find this out.

And not just any sawtooth -- big bang, sloping decay, big bang, sloping decay.  The higher the energy, the sawtoothier the graphs look.  In the 2-10 keV band, it's pretty flat until you hit a B- or C-class tantrum.

Yes, and the X-class looks like El Capitan.

[nomuse]

Glad you made this comment as I was thinking about this on the way home tonight. I didn't give it much thought this morning through my conjunctivitis infected eyes, but 8 MeV is associated with gamma. What was his photon source, a synchrotron?

A "linear accelerator" (Dark Moon, p. 540).  No further information given.  In the spectral classification based on wavelength/energy, 8 MeV is well into the gamma band.  I.e., the sort of thing where you want to think about substantial thicknesses of steel and concrete to protect yourself while working around it.  A 25-rad absorbed dose of this is what Romulus characterizes as, "relatively low levels of radiation," and which he insinuates is the lunar surface environment.  Some devices classified as x-ray machines can generate energies above 100 keV, but those are for applications like looking for bombs in shipping containers.

I did a wee bit of poking around after he first mentioned the Groves thing to try to get a handle on the scale of the thing. The first strong hit I got was the Therac series. So, yes -- we are talking a machine capable of killing a human being in a matter of minutes under the right (wrong) conditions.

Its an order of magnitude problem again. If we assume film in a camera on the Moon is getting hit with this kind of insult, then you can wave your hands as hard as you like about the tenuous wisps of atmosphere up where the ISS orbits -- we're still talking LD50 well before the average astronaut stay there ends.

To go back to the naval cannon example our warrior liked, astronauts up there right now might be benefitting from the equivalent of a few sheets of cardboard. It makes no difference whether it is "a couple sheets" or "up to a dozen sheets" when you are facing a 16" shell.

And, yeah, I was seeing papers on "short liniacs" as the bleeding edge but it didn't quite intrigue me enough to face the paywalls.

[Luke Pemberton]

Well, yeah.  When I said 8 MeV was "well into the gamma band," I was being a tad droll

Quite, my Na²⁴ was my own reality check in that the moon has it's own natural radiation environment, I was rather concurring with you in droll and headshaking manner that Groves has a PhD and believes that 8 MeV is a commonly occurring natural photon energy.

The division of the spectrum into "discrete" bands by wavelength is a bit artificial.

Absolutely, at MeV energies it all becomes quite academic, literally and metaphorically speaking.

For engineering purposes -- and I suppose for physics purposes too -- a qualitative reckoning works better.  X-rays are classified by how they're produced, and so are gamma rays -- produced by different processes.

Yes, and then there are those photons that are produced in supernova. Huge energies but extremely low flux.

So you can technically have an 8 MeV x-ray as long as it's produced by the same physical processes that produce other energies of x-ray.  But...

Absolutely, and high energy photons produced in synchrotrons are usually classed as x-ray as they are not produced in nuclear transitions.

But then Groves is the kind of "scientist" who puts film in his oven to simulate the Moon's thermal environment.

I recall this from a previous discussion (and Clavius?). I take it the film melted due to convection and conduction heating

[JayUtah]

I misunderstood your first question and see the point you are making now. I'd have to go and dig to find this out.

Don't go to any trouble; I was idly curious.  The point we're making together is that a solar flare emits x-rays for only a few minutes, not the four hours Groves assumes.

Yes, and the X-class looks like El Capitan.

I was going to say Mt. Doom, but yes.

[Luke Pemberton]

Its an order of magnitude problem again. If we assume film in a camera on the Moon is getting hit with this kind of insult, then you can wave your hands as hard as you like about the tenuous wisps of atmosphere up where the ISS orbits -- we're still talking LD50 well before the average astronaut stay there ends.

A point well made. If space was such a dreadful sea of deadly high energy electromagnetic radiation then astronauts in LEO would be exposed. I'm not sure if many are familiar with un4g1v3n1, but he often reels lists of radiation types as being deadly. My favourite was his inclusion of neutrinos. I caught Jarrah with this one once when he casually made a list of dangerous radiation and included neutrinos. He avoided my follow on question