The Bali 9 and...

[Luke Pemberton]

The Death Penalty is one of those government powers that always will end up being abused for political gain.
Historically it always has.

How?

Derek Bentley. Say no more.

The problem with your argument is that you apply guilt to differing degrees. You choose the murder of Lee Rigby as an example. Yes, the killers of Lee were guilty, there is no question of their guilt. So, according to your argument they should be executed.

However, justice should be balanced. That is fair. You cannot say, well we'll hang those people because their guilt is clear, but not those because there is some doubt. This would be unfair. There are only two other options, have no death penalty, or have a death penalty that executes all those convicted and then say sorry later for the miscarriages of justice.

When I was younger (late teens) I supported the death penalty. Then I heard an argument by Edward Heath.

It's not a question of whether you would be prepared to pull the lever, it's a question of whether you are prepared to die for the crime of another. I would not be happy for the state to take my life in the knowledge that I am innocent, so I cannot expect that of others. Hence I am opposed to the death penalty.

ETA: Here is a great example of a reason not to support the death penalty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32180700

[Peter B]

And as I have said if the evidence is weak enough to be able to leave a shred of doubt in a jury's mind then the death Penalty should NOT be in consideration.

The problem with "weak enough" is that no two people will ever agree where to draw that line.

In this regard it's similar to people who say that the death penalty should only be applied in the most heinous cases: where do you draw the line and say, this crime is heinous enough to warrant the death penalty, but that crime is one iota less heinous so doesn't attract the death penalty.

[Zakalwe]

The death penalty brutalises the society that insist on it. Look at the societies that inflict capital punishment on others.....are any of them examples of fairness and justice (and I include America in this). Look at the mindset of those in power that wield the death sentence and see what sort of justice they use and the examples that they set.  Saudi Arabia- a virtual totalitarian state. America- extraordinary rendition, torture to extract "confessions", wholesale trampling on their Constitution by people like Cheney and Bush. China?

Add to that, capital punishment actually work as a deterrent to terrible crimes. In America the States that do not have the death penalty have lower murder rates than the states with capital punishment. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

It's also telling that the most vocal callers for capital punishment tend to be those that use religious texts as their justification. IMHO, the less that people like this get into power the better.

No thank you....I do not want to be part of a society that thinks that the answer to terrible crimes is to execute people.

[Peter B]

Whether it should be applied for drugs related cases is another matter, I personally don't think so. Indonesia obviously thinks it's required and as others have said, if you go to a country with the Death Penalty for certain crimes...don't commit those crimes...or don't be surprised and all 'remorseful' if you do and get caught....clear and simple! People opposed to this particular sentence have said..."but they have been reformed"! Oh really? massive opportunities to  smuggle drugs in an Indonesian prison and they have 'turned their backs' on those opportunities? I don't think so! It's probably quite easy to say "I will honestly never ever, ever, smuggle drugs again" when you are looking at a death sentence imposed on you!

One of the people set to be executed with the two Bali 9 men is the Frenchman Serge Areski Atlaoui. According to this story (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-05/9-other-prisoners-death-row-with-bali-nine-pair-chan-sukumaran/6130190) he was a welder who accepted a job in a factory which turned out to be a drug laboratory, and after he found this out he tried to leave immediately, only to be arrested. What you say about knowingly flouting a country's laws is quite true, but what about people being executed for crimes it appears they had nothing to do with?

The death sentence will never deter crimes...it will deter repeat offences of crimes when offenders found guilty have been released on Parole. When the death Penalty was in force in the UK there were something like 70 murderers who had been reprieved (and that doesn't mean commuted to a 'whole life' life sentence but on average back then it was 10 years served and then released) who then went on to murder again. How many murderers have murdered again since the death penalty was abolished? I don't know, but if it was only one murder it would have been avoided had the murderer been executed.

I'm always uneasy about this argument, as it smacks of punishing a person for a hypothetical crime - the murder they might commit if they're released.

In any case, I can think of a few practical reasons for not executing people:

1. The person may have information about other crimes, leading to the possibility of convictions of other guilty people or the release of innocent people.

2. A prisoner in jail can potentially contribute to society. A dead person can't.

3. Executions are more expensive than life in prison, due to legal costs being higher than incarceration costs.

4. A live prisoner can be charged with further crimes if the evidence warrants it.

I don't care how the sentence is carried out either. When a young child is abducted, raped, horrifically tortured and then murdered, where their last few hours (or even days) of life are full of horrendous pain and paralysing fear, then I couldn't give a monkeys toss if a lethal injection isn't all nice and peaceful for the filth who committed that crime.

How far do you think this punishment equivalence should go? Should it be applied on the basis of the killer's intent to cause pain, or on the basis of the victim's actual death?

But the main thing is there must be, in either case, absolutely no doubt, no extenuating circumstances, whatsoever! otherwise you cannot have a death sentence or a whole life tariff.

Well, I appreciate hearing that.

The problem is that with the cases I've read about in the USA, cases which at first glance appear watertight end up looking anything but when given a more detailed study.

Then there are the disturbing cases, such as the Willingham case where the (prisoner) witness who claimed Willingham confessed to him later claimed he'd been coerced by the prosecutor with the promise of a reduced sentence if he cooperated; or the case of the Norfolk Four convicted of rape and murder who pleaded guilty to avoid the risk of the death penalty as a result of confessions obtained in the absence of lawyers.

[Luke Pemberton]

Saudi Arabia- a virtual totalitarian state.

Absolutely, and as soon as the oil goes, so will the arm deals and the 'special diplomatic' ties. Call me cynical, but I'm fairly sure that we turn a blind eye to the appalling human rights because of their oil. Once Saddam threatened that in 1990 we were suddenly quick to demonise Saddam.

This is interesting in itself as it shows the number of liberal minded people at this forum, and while these are not the moon hoax boards, I always feel a sense of frustration from the moon hoax crowd when they accuse us of propping up government lies, when in fact we are probably some of the most open minded and liberal individuals around.

I think SG Collins made a good call, when he explained that the moon hoax was not his life, and if he were the US Government he would feel very content with the moon hoax crowd as they were drawing attention away from the conspiracies that really mattered.

[gillianren]

The Death Penalty is one of those government powers that always will end up being abused for political gain.
Historically it always has.

How?

If a prosecutor wants to be seen as "tough on crime," they go for the death penalty in a situation where even those in favour of it on principle might see it as questionable if they knew the details.  In the US, if you are poor and/or an ethnic minority, you are more likely to end up on Death Row than if you are rich and/or white, because the skill of your lawyer is one of the things that influences which way things will go for you.  There are frankly countless examples of political influence on the death penalty, not actual consideration of evidence.

[Zakalwe]

The Death Penalty is one of those government powers that always will end up being abused for political gain.
Historically it always has.

How?

If a prosecutor wants to be seen as "tough on crime," they go for the death penalty in a situation where even those in favour of it on principle might see it as questionable if they knew the details.  In the US, if you are poor and/or an ethnic minority, you are more likely to end up on Death Row than if you are rich and/or white, because the skill of your lawyer is one of the things that influences which way things will go for you.  There are frankly countless examples of political influence on the death penalty, not actual consideration of evidence.

Absolutely. You only have to look at the less civilised states in America where the local Governor is keen to appear "tough on crime"
"Texas' appellate judges are elected to office and hence serve according to the pleasure of the public. Not surprisingly, they require a record of toughness on criminals in order to win re-election."  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/execution/readings/texas.html

This is interesting in itself as it shows the number of liberal minded people at this forum, and while these are not the moon hoax boards, I always feel a sense of frustration from the moon hoax crowd when they accuse us of propping up government lies, when in fact we are probably some of the most open minded and liberal individuals around.

Indeed!
It's also telling that the more hard-line right-wingers tend to suffer from crank-magnetism. Look to extreme example like Interdimensional Warrior-he was a crank hoax-believer, a homophobe, a rascist, and anti-Semite and sexist.

[Luke Pemberton]

Absolutely. You only have to look at the less civilised states in America where the local Governor is keen to appear "tough on crime"
"Texas' appellate judges are elected to office and hence serve according to the pleasure of the public. Not surprisingly, they require a record of toughness on criminals in order to win re-election." 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/execution/readings/texas.html

Crikey, that's scary. I really get shirty with people who have anti-US sentiments because it's chique to bad mouth all that is the 'US of A', but I really wish the US would abolish capital punishment.

Probably the biggest miscarriage of justice in this country was the Derek Bentley case. Derek had learning difficulties, and from my understanding this would mean Social and Limited Communication Needs.

Derek Bentley and Christopher Craig were found on the roof a factory by the police. Craig shot a policeman dead. At the time of the shooting Bentley had been apprehended but he was heard to utter the words 'let him have it' to Craig.

The prosecution took those words to mean 'let him have the bullet' whereas the defence argued that Bentley was telling Craig to 'let him have the gun.'

Craig, being under the age of 18 did not hang. Bentley did. Many felt that the establishment wanted revenge for the killing of the policeman. Despite appeals Bentley went to the gallows, even though there were many precedents that people who had been accessories to murder had death penalties overturned. No one can ever convince me that the hanging of Bentley was right. It was his story that made me change my mind about the death penalty.

[Andromeda]

Pgs 506-509

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o-VgH3zb61IC&pg=PA506&lpg=PA506&ots=74zjHCozYk&focus=viewport&dq=bill+bryson+hotel+california&output=html_text

[Luke Pemberton]

Pgs 506-509

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o-VgH3zb61IC&pg=PA506&lpg=PA506&ots=74zjHCozYk&focus=viewport&dq=bill+bryson+hotel+california&output=html_text

That slightly puts to bed the idea that it is cheaper to execute someone than incarcerate them. I guess the counter argument would be not to let them appeal and make sure the execution happened soon after sentence. In the UK, the time between sentence and execution was moderately short. Another reason for me not supporting the death penalty. Evidence can take years to come forward and change a case.

[Zakalwe]

Evidence can take years to come forward and change a case.

Indeed. And that's not factoring that the Police have frequently lied under oath, concealed and doctored evidence, fabricated evidence and shown all sorts of bias.SDome examples:
The Birmingham 6
The Guildford 4
Sally Clark

If capital punishment was in place then there is a strong possibility that these people would have had to face that sentence.

Look at the current enquiry into the Hillsborough disaster where members of the South Yorkshire Police "reviewed and altered" their statements. There is no system that could give me the satisfaction that a death sentence could be justified completely.

Here's an interesting article from the Beeb on the ethics of capital punishment and the usual arguments for and against.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/capitalpunishment/

[Luke Pemberton]

Indeed. And that's not factoring that the Police have frequently lied under oath, concealed and doctored evidence, fabricated evidence and shown all sorts of bias.SDome examples:
The Birmingham 6
The Guildford 4

Good examples, and given the climate at the time I am fairly sure they would have faced the noose for political goal. Hanging the Birmingham 6 and Guilford 4 would have inflamed a terrible situation even more, especially when one thinks about the martyr that Bobby Sands was made.

Look at the current enquiry into the Hillsborough disaster where members of the South Yorkshire Police "reviewed and altered" their statements. There is no system that could give me the satisfaction that a death sentence could be justified completely.

Absolutely, no system is without corruption, another reason that the death penalty should not be used. Justice should be fair, and the fairest sort of justice is allowing a person to prove their innocence if they are found guilty. Guilt is never absolute.

I really do fear for this country if we leave Europe as I think we will see a return of the death penalty. An EU member cannot have capital punishment on their statute.

[ka9q]

That slightly puts to bed the idea that it is cheaper to execute someone than incarcerate them. I guess the counter argument would be not to let them appeal and make sure the execution happened soon after sentence.

Yes. And about the only thing worse than being in a country with the death penalty is being in a country where the death penalty is cheaper than incarceration because all of the reviews and safeguards you definitely want on such an extreme penalty have been done away with.

[ka9q]

In the US, if you are poor and/or an ethnic minority, you are more likely to end up on Death Row than if you are rich and/or white, because the skill of your lawyer is one of the things that influences which way things will go for you.

I wonder if this is partly an artifact of the adversarial legal system we inherited from the Brits. Like most Americans I was taught in school that it defends the rights of the individual better than the alternatives like the civil law system, but now I'm not so sure. The adversarial system can work well (if not efficiently) when both sides have deep pockets, but that is rarely true when the death penalty is involved.

You only have to look at the less civilised states in America where the local Governor is keen to appear "tough on crime"
"Texas' appellate judges are elected to office and hence serve according to the pleasure of the public. Not surprisingly, they require a record of toughness on criminals in order to win re-election.

Not just Texas. Local judges stand for election here in California too. In their ballot blurbs they invariably tout how many criminals they've put in jail and claim they're "law enforcement's choice", often adding the catchphrase "tough but fair".

This would make it easier to decide who to vote for except that many of these elections are uncontested.

[ka9q]

Saudi Arabia- a virtual totalitarian state.

Absolutely, and as soon as the oil goes, so will the arm deals and the 'special diplomatic' ties. Call me cynical, but I'm fairly sure that we turn a blind eye to the appalling human rights because of their oil. Once Saddam threatened that in 1990 we were suddenly quick to demonise Saddam.

You're not cynical at all; you're just perceptive. Saudi Arabia routinely scores near the bottom of various annual democracy lists, just a few notches above North Korea.

One of the nice things about driving an electric car is knowing that none of my operating costs go to such a backward and medieval country. See the movie Syriana; oil is one of the most corrupting substances in existence.