The Bali 9 and...

[Luther]

combined with the fallibility of the legal system (especially in the US)

Maybe the fallibility of the legal system is why the president of that country bypasses it, and just orders people assassinated.

[Echnaton]

People don't risk this because they are "stupid," rather that young people, particularity young men, have a great deal of difficulty in assessing actual risk and consequences.  Many times they have values regarding their own lives that are quite skewed relative to what most full adults have.  It's why we have higher insurance rates for young drivers and why the higher rates extend to age 25 for men. 

The fact that people still do take the risk and smuggle drugs shows the rather limited deterrence factor of the death penalty.  And what other reason is it there for?  Many political reasons only tangential to the actual crime.

[Zakalwe]

The recent FBI admission that they made errors in hair analysis is further proof (if any were needed) of why any right-minded person can not support the death penalty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32380051

"Defendants in at least 35 of these cases received the death penalty and errors were identified in 33 (94 percent) of those cases. Nine of these defendants have already been executed and five died of other causes while on death row. The states with capital cases included Arizona, California, Florida, Indiana, Missouri, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and Texas. It should be noted that this is an ongoing process and that the numbers referenced above will change." (emphasis mine)

Regarding the Bali 9, they really picked a bad place to smuggle drugs through.  Darwin Award winners, for sure.

[Luke Pemberton]

People don't risk this because they are "stupid," rather that young people, particularity young men, have a great deal of difficulty in assessing actual risk and consequences.  Many times they have values regarding their own lives that are quite skewed relative to what most full adults have.  It's why we have higher insurance rates for young drivers and why the higher rates extend to age 25 for men. 

The fact that people still do take the risk and smuggle drugs shows the rather limited deterrence factor of the death penalty.  And what other reason is it there for?  Many political reasons only tangential to the actual crime.

I was with smartcooky until I read this. It is convenient to apply the word stupid when in fact we mean they are less risk aware and prone to take chances. I like your balance and ability to move us away from emotive language by applying logical and coherent arguments Echnaton. You do bring balance to the board. Thank you.

[smartcooky]

People don't risk this because they are "stupid," rather that young people, particularity young men, have a great deal of difficulty in assessing actual risk and consequences.  Many times they have values regarding their own lives that are quite skewed relative to what most full adults have.  It's why we have higher insurance rates for young drivers and why the higher rates extend to age 25 for men. 

The fact that people still do take the risk and smuggle drugs shows the rather limited deterrence factor of the death penalty.  And what other reason is it there for?  Many political reasons only tangential to the actual crime.

So, you're blaming society?

Sorry, I don't buy it. Not only is the fact that drug traffickers in Indonesia are executed plastered all over the news, but when you go to any destination in Indonesia, there are large obvious warning signs at all the entry points.

Firstly, there are literally hundreds of thousands of young men in your "risk unaware" age bracket who visit Bali & other parts of Indonesia every year. There are very few who attempt to smuggle drugs, So, what makes their "lack of risk awareness" different from all the other young male visitors? The only difference I can think of is stupidity. Other risk unaware young men do things like drive too fast or undertake risky pastimes and adventure sports such as sky-diving, white-water canoeing, caving, rock climbing etc.

Secondly, there are people caught smuggling drugs into Indonesia who aren't male (Schappelle Corby 28 when caught) and aren't in your age bracket (Edward Myatt, 54). There are even smugglers who are neither male nor young (Lindsay Sandiford, 56 yrs). What are their excuses?

Do not lose sight of the fact that drug smugglers are criminals who themselves deal in the misery and death of others. They choose the path they walk down, and if that path leads to their execution because they are silly enough to try it on despite the fact that they know the consequences, then they have only themselves to blame.

[Zakalwe]

I don't buy that either (and I'm a bit of a hand-wringing liberal). Difficulty assessing risks? This wasn't a broken leg following a silly stunt. They were part of a well organised syndicate that had planned and organised multiple drug mules to traffic drugs through international borders. The ring leaders were intelligent coherent people (evidenced by their activities in prison life) but they chose to employ their abilities in criminal activity.

I don't buy for one millisecond that they were unable to fully asses the risks that they were taken. I place even less credence on the argument that they are anything but "full adults". They were drug dealers and peddlers in misery.

[ka9q]

They were drug dealers and peddlers in misery.

Maybe so, but they were created by the drug war.

Drug addiction is a medical problem. Someday we'll recognize that.

[gillianren]

Not only that, but seriously, brain studies.  Okay, it may not universally apply, but it does to a certain extent.  I haven't looked into these individuals, but men of a certain age don't process risk as well as others.  Yeah, they'd see the signs, but they'd think, "Oh, I won't get caught."  We know this happens.  We know how the brain works.  Do I know that's what's going on with any of these people?  Nope.  I don't know the details.  But you combine "bad risk assessment" with any one or two of about a half-dozen other factors I can think of, and no, it's not all that surprising.  And that comes from someone who doesn't even drink and finds more than a few drugs to be completely reprehensible.

[ka9q]

I am no psychologist, but I'm pretty sure this is an established fact. The law, even the death penalty, often does not deter people because they are convinced they won't get caught. It's a strange inversion of the usual phenomenon that people often overestimate infinitesimal risks like getting struck by lightning or dying in a plane crash or terrorist attack.

I would never try to match wits with professional police detectives with years of experience in getting people to say things they didn't really want to say, even though I'm a fairly intelligent person with good verbal skills. Maybe that's why.

[Echnaton]

So, you're blaming society?

Well yes, but probably not in the way you are reading into my short post.  I blame society (particularly the one in which I live, the USA and Texas) for viewing the government as having the moral authority to judge some humans for being so morally irredeemable that they are unfit to live.

My purpose was to frame these unfortunate men's actions in terms that are not morally judgmental but rather as an example of a mental process we all exhibit.   It seems self evident to me that anyone who goes through those warnings and still commits the crime of drug smuggling as exhibiting extremely unrealistic risk judgement.  To do this, one must have had some version of the all to common human beliefs of "I can get away with this," and "the most dire consequences won't apply to me" going through ones head.   

I don't know about anyone else here, but I've had similar thoughts right before I've done "stupid" things and highly successful things.  These are common attitudes and drive some people to be entrepreneurs, soldiers, and even parents.   All of which are activities filled risks of different degrees and kinds. 

Firstly, there are literally hundreds of thousands of young men in your "risk unaware" age bracket who visit Bali & other parts of Indonesia every year.

Correct, risk unawareness and risk seeking have a great deal of variety among people, it is among the things that gives variety to life.  And like all other activities people make choices and choices have consequences.  These men suffered the logical outcome of their choice and were killed. 

To expand on my previous short post, some people, particularity young people, have a skewed view of risk and reward, relative to society.  It doesn't make them stupid or to morally corrupt to be alive.  Nor does it excuse them from the legal consequences of their actions.  But it should be weighed and considered.  We do this by treating juveniles different than adults, for instance.  Most people grow out of this, with a sharp change starting around age 25 for men.

This particular example, one of a completely irrational risk taking, clearly nullifies one primary rationale for the death penalty, that of deterrence.  The death penalty will not stop some people from using drugs nor will it stop people from trafficking in drugs.  How do we know this, because drugs are used and available everywhere in the world, despite the criminality. 

The death penalty rationale of deterrence is not, in fact, rational.  This fact further exposes the underlying moral hypocrisy of state executions of criminals.

[Echnaton]

They were drug dealers and peddlers in misery.

They have reached the age of responsibility for their actions, knew the actions were illegal and violated the law.  That is sure.  But executing them is an irrevocable moral decision of judging them unfit to be alive and it better have an indisputable moral basis.  As to being "peddlers in misery," the prohibition of drugs brings death and  misery too. We need look no further than Northern Mexico to see the effects of US drug policy on the innocent. 

[smartcooky]

They were drug dealers and peddlers in misery.

They have reached the age of responsibility for their actions, knew the actions were illegal and violated the law.  That is sure.  But executing them is an irrevocable moral decision of judging them unfit to be alive and it better have an indisputable moral basis.  As to being "peddlers in misery," the prohibition of drugs brings death and  misery too. We need look no further than Northern Mexico to see the effects of US drug policy on the innocent.

You will get no argument from me as regards the death penalty... i consider it barbaric; it is quite simply state-sanctioned murder.

However, none of this has anything to do with the stupidity of people who commit a "death-penalty crime" knowing that they will face execution if caught. I don't buy the argument that criminals can be excused their behaviour because they are poor judges of risk or come from broken homes, or weren't breast fed when they were children or because their mummy didn't love them enough. I consider all of that to be PC claptrap; people become involved in criminal activity because they choose to do so.

My partner was frequently beaten by her large, angry and drunken stepmother, while her father, a career petty thief and sometimes burglar, stood by and did nothing to help. She chose not to go down the path her father had trodden. Instead, she moved away from home at 16 and worked multiple jobs to support her Fine Arts studies for which she ended up with a  Master's Degree (MFA) in Visual Arts. I am sure there are plenty of other people out there just like her, who had rotten childhoods and yet turned out just fine.

[gillianren]

My younger sister is a sociopath.  Yup, she makes terrible choices, and I haven't spoken to her voluntarily in twenty years--but she makes terrible choices because her brain is broken.  Arguably, worse than mine; for one thing, I'm pretty sure one of the bits of my sister's brain that's broken is the bit that tells her that there's something wrong with the other bits.  Do I think my sister should be punished for some of the things she's done over the years?  Yes, especially since there's no cure for her condition.  But she isn't stupid.  She's mentally ill.  "They chose to do it" is indisputable; why they chose to do it takes some considering.

[Echnaton]

I don't buy the argument that criminals can be excused their behaviour because they are poor judges of risk or come from broken homes

I wasn't making that argument.

[Andromeda]

I agree with Gillian.

It's very easy to talk about "choices" for those among us who have no neurological issues and grew up in a stable home with secure attachments.  The ability to make choices is not just down to the knowledge of doing so, but also innate ability, education, development, illness (and side-effects from the drugs used to treat it) etc.

Some people make choices others might see as "bad" - but they key to human compassion is hope for education, growth, redemption and rehabilitation.  The death penalty takes away that hope.