Author Topic: Question about J White's moon rock composition  (Read 47219 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2015, 07:50:02 PM »
Bennett and Percy cite an expert on radioisotopes to argue that the "half-life" of the Van Allen belts after Project Dominic amplified them briefly would have been some number of years.  The method they take from the physicist is correct for radioisotopes, but Bennett and Percy are the ones who wrongly apply it to an agglomeration of charged particles, which has nothing to do with radioisotopic decay.  The Van Allen belts are not composed of radioisotopes.
My understanding is that the temporarily enhanced belts consisted mainly of electrons formed by the beta decay of bomb fission products.

But not only do the products have a very wide range of half lives, other mechanisms exist to clear both the electrons and the undecayed fission products. Even though most of those mechanisms were probably exponential, I'm sure their combination was pretty complex.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2015, 07:52:20 PM »
Nice article on lunar water;

http://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet/who-discovered-water-on-the-moon-110774900/?no-ist

Now that is interesting as Blunderwonder cites the 'rusty rock' as burning proof of the whole world telling fibs when it was pointed out to him the the lunar rocks are predominately Ferrous iron and elemental iron. He pulled out the 'rusty rock' source as proof that Fe3+ is found in lunar rocks, and therefore they must be Earth rocks. Why does he forget to mention the Ferrous/elemental iron predominance over this one example where space weathering might very well be the cause of rusting? Why does he omit that the rust might be explained by space weathering, and its presence is consistent with other space weathering effects?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 08:08:00 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

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Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2015, 07:59:25 PM »
My understanding is that the temporarily enhanced belts consisted mainly of electrons formed by the beta decay of bomb fission products.

That is mine too.

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But not only do the products have a very wide range of half lives, other mechanisms exist to clear both the electrons and the undecayed fission products. Even though most of those mechanisms were probably exponential, I'm sure their combination was pretty complex.

It would appear that the effects of Starfish prime were complex and the effects lasted for several years after, although this is still debated.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline ka9q

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2015, 08:12:30 PM »
Now that is interesting as Blunderwonder cites the 'rusty rock' as burning proof of the whole world telling fibs when it was pointed out to him the the lunar rocks are predominately Ferrous iron and elemental iron. He pulled out the 'rusty rock' source as proof that Fe3+ is found in lunar rocks, and therefore they must be Earth rocks.
I'm not a geologist, but I have read that the Great Oxygenation Event over 2 billion years ago oxidized all the free iron on the earth's surface and dissolved in the oceans. This formed the banded iron formations that we now mine as iron ore. The existence of elemental iron on the moon would therefore be proof of formation and existence in an oxygen-free environment. Aren't the only finds of natural metallic iron on the earth nickel-iron meteorites?


Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2015, 08:24:15 PM »
I'm not a geologist, but I have read that the Great Oxygenation Event over 2 billion years ago oxidized all the free iron on the earth's surface and dissolved in the oceans. This formed the banded iron formations that we now mine as iron ore.

Everyday is a school day :)

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The existence of elemental iron on the moon would therefore be proof of formation and existence in an oxygen-free environment. Aren't the only finds of natural metallic iron on the earth nickel-iron meteorites?

Not sure about the nickel-iron meterorite question, but I am sure that you are correct. :)

Here are some interesting discussions about the formation of elemental iron.

http://www.planetary.brown.edu/pdfs/4371.pdf

http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EPSC2010/EPSC2010-63.pdf

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/chondrites2004/pdf/9011.pdf

« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 08:33:38 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 12:28:58 PM »
Then they indeed are truly idiots of the 1st class,...

They're either idiots or very crafty authors who know how to create the semblance of rigor and impress a lay audience just long enough to collect their money and run.

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much like Jarrah and his video series 'Radioactive Anomaly.' It really grates me that he claims to be an expert but decides to title his thundering evidence with an incorrect term, and then when this is pointed out he dismisses the criticism as nit picking.

Correct terminology is what separates experts from novices, not out of some nit-picky preference but because the subtle linguistic differences in those words convey important differences.

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Any 'astro-fizzysist' worth their salt would not make that mistake, yet he openly calls me the 'alledged physicist' and you the 'alledged aerospace engineer.'

That's just him living out his fantasy life, which is one of a couple of reasons I largely ignore him.

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Mauldin's Prospects for Interstellar Travel, another prime example of citing an expert but not invoking his entire judgement. It's a common tactic. The CTs fall silent when asked if they have checked whether their source also thinks Apollo was hoaxed.

Anyone who reads Mauldin's book and comes away believing in any way that Mauldin though Apollo might have been a fake clearly missed the whole point of the book.  The overall theme of the book is, "This is what worked for Apollo, but for interstellar missions we have to do something else."

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Real experts have better things to do than be bothered with addressing the claims of cranks.

Especially when approached under false pretenses.  Most of these people are what you'd expect:  hardworking, underpaid public servants who have subject-matter interest and subject-matter expertise.  The kind of polemics conspiracy theorists thrive on simply don't interest them.  Being dragged involuntarily into absurd debates can sometimes have real professional consequences.  Conspiracy theorists often have an inflated sense of their own relevance, hence they think it's the experts' duty to weigh on their beliefs -- either with or without their knowledge.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2015, 03:44:59 PM »

Have I got something incorrect? I understand that the glass beads that Saal et. al. investigated show that they cooled and outgassed very quickly because they formed in a vacuum, and that their roundness was evidence of doing so in low-g. Have I got the latter part wrong, in which case I stand corrected? The fact that the glass beads exist in such abundance at all is evidence that they came from a place where there is little erosion. I might be getting confused here, but I'm beginning to recall that their roundness is attributed to there being no erosion, not low-g?

the orange glass beads (not always spherical) are attributed to fire fountains.  These are well known on Earth, there was a spectacular one in Chile a few days ago. The beads they produce can be so common that in Hawaii they have been called "Pele's tears".

Green glass beads are impact.  On earth we call them microtekites or impact spherules.  They are quite rare because impacts are rare.

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I've learned a couple of new things here. Thanks.

You are welcome :)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 04:24:50 PM by Dalhousie »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2015, 03:50:05 PM »
Have I got something incorrect? I understand that the glass beads that Saal et. al. investigated show that they cooled and outgassed very quickly because they formed in a vacuum, and that their roundness was evidence of doing so in low-g.

You're not wrong.

The spherules formed as the result of finely dispersed molten regolith ejected in meteor impacts.  In ballistic trajectories in low gravity, the molten droplets remain effectively in free-fall for quite a while, forming into spheres.  This is how we used to make lead musket balls.  When the land back on the surface, they're glass beads for all intents and purposes.

I read something by Dr. John Keller many years ago about convection patterns in lunar rocks that formed on the surface, in lunar gravity.  I would have to go find my notes to say for sure, but my long-ago memory of the take-away was that yes indeed, you can in some cases tell whether rock solidified in lesser gravity.  Dalhousie, that's not meant to contradict you.  But I think it bears greater scrutiny.

There are glass beads and glass beads.  Some are impact spatter (green glass), some are from fire fountains (orange glass).

But glass cools quite quickly so time of flight is not an issue, AFAIK.  We get glass beads on Earth, not only in fire fountains, but in things like smelter chimneys. And of course in impact events, forming microtektites.

What is significant about the meteorite glass beds (and the impact spatter and agglutinates) is the fact they are common, indicating a surface actively being gardened by impact.  On Earth they are rare.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2015, 03:55:48 PM »
I read something by Dr. John Keller many years ago about convection patterns in lunar rocks that formed on the surface, in lunar gravity.  I would have to go find my notes to say for sure, but my long-ago memory of the take-away was that yes indeed, you can in some cases tell whether rock solidified in lesser gravity.  Dalhousie, that's not meant to contradict you.  But I think it bears greater scrutiny.

It would nice to find that source.  I ran this past the doyen of lunar petrology, Ross Taylor, when his office was two doors from mine and he said low gravity did not leave an imprint.  He could be wrong.

Even very low gravity is enough to allow convention currents, magmatic differentiation, etc, as we see them in the achondritic meteorites.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2015, 05:12:28 PM »
How about the lack of an atmosphere? Even in free fall, an atmosphere could shape a molten droplet into a teardrop. I'd expect a freezing sphere in flight above the moon to come out completely round.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2015, 05:18:49 PM »
It would nice to find that source.  I ran this past the doyen of lunar petrology, Ross Taylor, when his office was two doors from mine and he said low gravity did not leave an imprint.  He could be wrong.

Or the two could be talking/thinking about different phenomena.  I'll endeavor to recover the other information.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Mag40

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2015, 06:32:03 PM »
This is another aspect of the glass beads that I don't think has been mentioned. It concerns the effect gravity has on the alignment of actual sizes of the beads within a particular sample:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-brazil-nut-effect-gravity.html

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2015, 09:18:31 AM »
How about the lack of an atmosphere? Even in free fall, an atmosphere could shape a molten droplet into a teardrop. I'd expect a freezing sphere in flight above the moon to come out completely round.

That's part of the evidence that I read, the spherules that were brought back from the lunar surface are 'very round' suggesting that they were formed in vacuum. I understand that these spherules were formed by fire fountains. However, I cannot find the source material. The other aspect of the spherules is that the are not eroded. They are space weathered though.

I wonder if CTs understand that roundness is an important measurement, and is used in many sciences. I understand that the standard kg is currently being replaced with a 'perfectly' round silicon sphere.

https://ceramics.org/ceramic-tech-today/scientists-look-to-define-kilogram-with-a-super-round-silicon-sphere

or that the electron may be perfectly round.

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_26-5-2011-8-58-6

They seem to dismiss these snippets of evidence that really establish the veracity of the evidence: the samples are from the moon and cannot be formed on Earth.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2015, 09:19:33 AM »
Or the two could be talking/thinking about different phenomena.  I'll endeavor to recover the other information.

That would be good as I knew I had read about convection currents and lunar geology, did a Google seach and found that I had read it on Clavius. :)
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Question about J White's moon rock composition
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2015, 12:52:15 PM »
That would be good as I knew I had read about convection currents and lunar geology, did a Google seach and found that I had read it on Clavius. :)

At least I got the attribution right out of my foggy memory.

Maybe this link helps.  It's not exactly where I got the original information, but it is Keller talking about Taylor.
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php?40353-How-do-you-fake-moon-rocks/page4

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 12:56:22 PM by JayUtah »
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams