Author Topic: Apollo XIII-inconsistences  (Read 175111 times)

Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #270 on: October 08, 2015, 05:59:58 PM »
I'm no geologist (or a selenologist), but it makes sense to me we should be able to see some signs. Crystallization is connected to convection (hence the experiments in free fall with virus and protein crystallization), and convection is affected by gravity. Mind you, I may be talking out of my ass, so feel free to call me on my ignorance. This is more or less me piecing together the fragmented bits of what I know and hoping to come up with something plausible.
I'm not sure about the crystallization but the lunar volcanic glass beads are generally more spherical than their Earth cousins due to the low gravity cooling.

Do you have a source for this?  I can think of many factors that will effect sphericity, such as flight time, viscosity, droplet size, cooling rate.  Gravity will at most be one factor for some of these (e.g. flight time).
Short answer it was in a video, where a geologist is measuring the gasses within the beads, and he was describing the spherical nature, however I did not bookmark it, looking currently.
EDIT:
I can see your other factors with cooling rate seemingly a dominant characteristic causing the spherical nature.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 06:08:00 PM by bknight »
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #271 on: October 08, 2015, 07:07:53 PM »
I'd like to see it if you can find it, otherwise, no worries.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #272 on: October 08, 2015, 07:19:59 PM »
Happened in 1066.
Indeed. As a Yank, I am always amused by the never-ending British-French rivalry whenever I visit either of those two countries. At least it's no longer violent (usually), which is why we can now chuckle about it.

A few months ago I finally got the chance to ride the Chunnel from London to Paris, and while the trip itself is downright anticlimactic I couldn't help but think how dramatic a change it represents in the long history between those two countries. Not so long ago it was unthinkable not only technically but also politically without one country conquering the other. Yet now it's a joint commercial venture, and you see lots of cars and trucks from the Continent on UK roads, and I'm sure the reverse is also true. It really has changed Europe.

So I'm still kinda amazed that the French celebrate this "Napoleon" guy so much. I bet they do it just to annoy the Brits. Yet they can be genuinely thin-skinned about it, such as when the Belgians issued a Euro coin celebrating the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo. While I'm sure the French have summertime "pops" concerts just like the Yanks and the Brits, something tells me they don't usually play "Wellington's Victory" or the "1812 Overture"....

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #273 on: October 08, 2015, 08:14:02 PM »
He is correct but it is not evidence that it formed in a lower gravity environment. It is consistent with being from the Moon where there is essentially no oxygen and very little water (in most places).
IANAG (I Am Not A Geologist) but I do understand the basic physics so I think it must be about the effect gravity has on whether the flight time of molten ejecta from an impact is long enough to solidify before hitting the ground.

A primary impact involves an object not already part of the moon; it always hits at (or usually well above) escape velocity. A secondary impact is ejecta from another impact that returns to the surface; it always hits at less than escape velocity. Determine the impact direction and energy of a secondary impactor and you can estimate its impact velocity and therefore its time of flight in the known low lunar gravity. The models simply wouldn't work so well for so many samples unless you assume lunar gravity, so that's the evidence they were formed in a low gravity environment.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #274 on: October 09, 2015, 01:08:51 AM »
Irrelevant.  Computers are not the be-all and end-all of technology.  We did (and still do) many things without computers.

And we do things with computers today that we did just fine (or at least well enough) without.  My toaster is equipped with a microprocessor.  That doesn't mean toast was a hoax in the 1960s.

"Okay, here's my question.  Would you like some toast?"
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #275 on: October 09, 2015, 02:53:09 AM »
He is correct but it is not evidence that it formed in a lower gravity environment. It is consistent with being from the Moon where there is essentially no oxygen and very little water (in most places).
IANAG (I Am Not A Geologist) but I do understand the basic physics so I think it must be about the effect gravity has on whether the flight time of molten ejecta from an impact is long enough to solidify before hitting the ground.

A primary impact involves an object not already part of the moon; it always hits at (or usually well above) escape velocity. A secondary impact is ejecta from another impact that returns to the surface; it always hits at less than escape velocity. Determine the impact direction and energy of a secondary impactor and you can estimate its impact velocity and therefore its time of flight in the known low lunar gravity. The models simply wouldn't work so well for so many samples unless you assume lunar gravity, so that's the evidence they were formed in a low gravity environment.

That is one explanation.  Although many of the glass beads (some of the green and all of orange AFAIR) are linked to fire fountains rather than impacts. 

Impacts do generate small glass beads on earth, we call them microtektites, or impact spherules in older rocks.  These are almost always spherical, sometimes dumbells or other shapes, and have had experienced substantial flight times.  The Australalite microtekite field extends to Antarctica from an as-yet undiscovered impact in SE Asia.

For fire fountains the longer the time they are in flight the more likely the glass droplets will form spherical shapes.  Obviously at lower gravity (e.g. the Moon) they will be thrown higher and fall slower than given the same impetus on Earth. 

However  the height of the fire fountain is driven by the rate of degassing (again AFAIR) and the amount of dissolved gas, which is highly variable on Earth and (I assume) the Moon.  This will also vary according to the gas, on Earth it is H2O and CO2, on the Moon mostly CO.  So we can't assume that lunar beads will have spent more time in flight.

Cooling rates are also important.  All glass beads cool quickly, as indicated by the fact they are glass.  However Lunar lavas probably at higher temperatures than terrestrial ones, so would cool slower, I suspect.  They are also in vacuum or at least low pressure, so will cool differently to beads.

The more viscous the lava the slower it would assume a spherical shape, so as most terrestrial lavas are more SiO2 rich (and thus more viscous) than lunar ones, they are more likely to be frozen into less regular shapes.

So there are many factors, gravity being just one of them. 

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #276 on: October 09, 2015, 03:01:53 AM »
I'm no geologist (or a selenologist), but it makes sense to me we should be able to see some signs. Crystallization is connected to convection (hence the experiments in free fall with virus and protein crystallization), and convection is affected by gravity. Mind you, I may be talking out of my ass, so feel free to call me on my ignorance. This is more or less me piecing together the fragmented bits of what I know and hoping to come up with something plausible.

Indeed.  And one would expect large magma bodies in a gravity field to convect. 

However an actual textural or chemical imprint of convection as opposed to other types of currents on a rock formed in such a body is (AFAIR) difficult to see and controversial. We do see clear evidence (both geochemical and textural) of magmatic differentiation via crystal settling (occasionally floating) in many coarse-grained igneous rocks on Earth and from the Moon (the anorthosites being one example). 

However you don't need much gravity to set this in motion.  The HED meteorite family, thought to be from Vesta, show differentiation and Vesta is only 525 km across, and gravity is only 2.5% Earth's. 

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #277 on: October 09, 2015, 06:32:05 PM »

Irrelevant.  Computers are not the be-all and end-all of technology.  We did (and still do) many things without computers.

And we do things with computers today that we did just fine (or at least well enough) without.  My toaster is equipped with a microprocessor.  That doesn't mean toast was a hoax in the 1960s.

Actually, sometimes I'd rather do without.  I'm still arguing with my toaster's microprocessor as to the right settings for bagels vs. English muffins.  The old rheostat-based one seemed to do better...

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Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #278 on: October 09, 2015, 07:27:48 PM »

Irrelevant.  Computers are not the be-all and end-all of technology.  We did (and still do) many things without computers.

And we do things with computers today that we did just fine (or at least well enough) without.  My toaster is equipped with a microprocessor.  That doesn't mean toast was a hoax in the 1960s.

Actually, sometimes I'd rather do without.  I'm still arguing with my toaster's microprocessor as to the right settings for bagels vs. English muffins.  The old rheostat-based one seemed to do better...

Howdy doodly doo!
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Offline Glom

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #279 on: October 10, 2015, 08:07:28 AM »


Happened in 1066.
Indeed. As a Yank, I am always amused by the never-ending British-French rivalry whenever I visit either of those two countries. At least it's no longer violent (usually), which is why we can now chuckle about it.

A few months ago I finally got the chance to ride the Chunnel from London to Paris, and while the trip itself is downright anticlimactic I couldn't help but think how dramatic a change it represents in the long history between those two countries. Not so long ago it was unthinkable not only technically but also politically without one country conquering the other. Yet now it's a joint commercial venture, and you see lots of cars and trucks from the Continent on UK roads, and I'm sure the reverse is also true. It really has changed Europe.

So I'm still kinda amazed that the French celebrate this "Napoleon" guy so much. I bet they do it just to annoy the Brits. Yet they can be genuinely thin-skinned about it, such as when the Belgians issued a Euro coin celebrating the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo. While I'm sure the French have summertime "pops" concerts just like the Yanks and the Brits, something tells me they don't usually play "Wellington's Victory" or the "1812 Overture"....

The original London terminus of Eurostar was at Waterloo station, originally named for the landmark battle. There were some complaints from the French that this was a deliberate insult.

Of course, it was because Waterloo was the only station at the time when an international terminal was remotely feasible.  It wasn't until 15 years later with the construction of a brand new mainline from Kent to London that the terminus was moved to St Pancras.

Offline Peter B

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #280 on: October 11, 2015, 03:51:59 AM »
I'm no geologist (or a selenologist), but it makes sense to me we should be able to see some signs. Crystallization is connected to convection (hence the experiments in free fall with virus and protein crystallization), and convection is affected by gravity. Mind you, I may be talking out of my ass, so feel free to call me on my ignorance. This is more or less me piecing together the fragmented bits of what I know and hoping to come up with something plausible.

This was the explanation given to me on a Skeptics email list by a geologist as one of the reasons we could be sure that the Apollo rocks came from the Moon. That's why I've continued to use it in statements to HBs.

However, if Dalhousie thinks it's inappropriate, then I'll stop.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #281 on: October 11, 2015, 04:59:42 AM »
The original London terminus of Eurostar was at Waterloo station, originally named for the landmark battle. There were some complaints from the French that this was a deliberate insult.

Of course, it was because Waterloo was the only station at the time when an international terminal was remotely feasible.  It wasn't until 15 years later with the construction of a brand new mainline from Kent to London that the terminus was moved to St Pancras.
Yes, a British friend who takes the Eurostar regularly to Paris told me that just before HS-1 and St Pancras opened, he arrived in Paris to see a large banner, in English: NO MORE WATERLOO.

Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #282 on: October 11, 2015, 09:28:42 AM »
The original London terminus of Eurostar was at Waterloo station, originally named for the landmark battle. There were some complaints from the French that this was a deliberate insult.

Of course, it was because Waterloo was the only station at the time when an international terminal was remotely feasible.  It wasn't until 15 years later with the construction of a brand new mainline from Kent to London that the terminus was moved to St Pancras.
Yes, a British friend who takes the Eurostar regularly to Paris told me that just before HS-1 and St Pancras opened, he arrived in Paris to see a large banner, in English: NO MORE WATERLOO.
Rather touchy about this battle weren't they?
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Offline Al Johnston

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #283 on: October 11, 2015, 01:57:39 PM »
Irrelevant.  Computers are not the be-all and end-all of technology.  We did (and still do) many things without computers.

And we do things with computers today that we did just fine (or at least well enough) without.  My toaster is equipped with a microprocessor.  That doesn't mean toast was a hoax in the 1960s.

"Okay, here's my question.  Would you like some toast?"

I resent the implication that I am a one-dimensional bread-obsessed character. ;)
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Offline Al Johnston

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #284 on: October 11, 2015, 01:58:55 PM »
The original London terminus of Eurostar was at Waterloo station, originally named for the landmark battle. There were some complaints from the French that this was a deliberate insult.

Of course, it was because Waterloo was the only station at the time when an international terminal was remotely feasible.  It wasn't until 15 years later with the construction of a brand new mainline from Kent to London that the terminus was moved to St Pancras.
Yes, a British friend who takes the Eurostar regularly to Paris told me that just before HS-1 and St Pancras opened, he arrived in Paris to see a large banner, in English: NO MORE WATERLOO.
Rather touchy about this battle weren't they?

Maybe they just weren't going to play ABBA any more...
"Cheer up!" they said. "It could be worse!" they said.
So I did.
And it was.