Author Topic: One giant explosion for mankind...  (Read 13683 times)

Offline Kiwi

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One giant explosion for mankind...
« on: August 06, 2015, 07:40:53 AM »
Fascinating article from The Observer on Sunday 14 May 2000, about plans the US Air Force had for the moon in the late 1950s - "US planned one big nuclear blast for mankind"
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2000/may/14/spaceexploration.theobserver

Doesn't a mushroom cloud from a nuclear explosion require an atmosphere?

I have vague memories of seeing a movie when at primary school about 1958-1961 (age 9-12)in which this was explained, but I don't recall the exact details. However, if my memory is correct, then how did such a detail escape the US Air Force back then, and how was it still escaping people in 2000?

The article implies that the plans were secret, but there were reports in my local newspapers, published in Palmerston North, New Zealand.


Manawatu Daily Times,  Friday 17 January 1958, page 7
Russia and Britain asked for combined effort to reach moon
Soviet admits fuel is main obstacle to be overcome

(Received 10:30 p.m.)  London, January 15
   Russian space scientists have suggested to Mr Khrushchev that Britain and America be asked to join a combined effort to reach the moon, the Daily Mail reported.  The newspaper said they had told Mr Khrushchev that they are far from the technical break-through necessary to fire a manned space ship to the moon.  Spokesman for the scientists was Professor N. Varvarov, President of the Aeronautical section of the Soviet Academy of Sciences, the newspaper said.
   The Daily Mail said Professor Varvarov had been allowed to publish his views.  In an article in a Moscow evening newspaper he had said the problems of moon flight could be solved if the scientists of other countries could be united for the peaceful development of this common aim.  An admission by the Professor that fuel was an obstacle for the moon rocket was the most interesting fact, the Daily Mail said.
   Professor Varvarov was reported to have written:  "With the contemporary level of development the weight of fuel would be 3000 times more than that of the rocket.  To build such a rocket would be impossible."
   Russia may put forward the proposal of a combined effort to gain initiative in the eyes of the uncommitted nations as the champion of peace, the Daily Mall said.
Swedish warning
   Meanwhile a Swedish engineer, Robert Engstroem, had warned scientists to consider carefully the possibility that disastrous tides might be created on earth by the explosion of a hydrogen bomb on the moon, the New York Times said today.
   The newspaper said Mr Engstroem had suggested, in a letter written to the American Rocket Society and the American Interplanetary Society, that a 20-megaton hydrogen bomb might disturb the celestial relationships between the moon and the earth.  The letter said this might be so much disturbed that a "mighty deluge" could occur on earth.


Manawatu Daily Times,  Thursday 20 March 1958, page 7
Manned satellites within five years?

(Received 9:50 p.m.)  Dallas, Texas, March 19
   Men could be flying around the earth aboard a satellite within two to five years, Dr Wernher von Braun said last night.  The rocket scientist said flights in rocket planes getting above most of the earth's atmosphere would come soon.  Then the next step would be flights in space satellites going into orbit with a safe return home for the human occupants.
   Dr von Braun gave this rough timetable in a press conference after giving an audience of rocket specialists and engineers a detailed account of the development and launching of Explorer I, the Army satellite.  He was a leading expert in this project.
   Dr von Braun called the success of the Vanguard satellite an unprecedented victory in rocketry.  The Navy's Vanguard project started from scratch nearly two years ago.  "To build such a complicated rocket in such a short time has never, never been done before," he said.
   Dr von Braun, in announcing detailed findings of temperatures met by Explorer I, said temperatures inside the satellite ranged from 100 to 120 degrees Fahrenheit.  He said temperatures in satellites could be controlled so that very delicate electronic equipment could be kept working to learn more about space in future satellites.
   Meanwhile, in Los Angeles yesterday an electronics expert said the Vanguard's solar battery radio would operate for years — or as long as the satellite was in orbit.
   Mr K. J. Kerr, vice president of Hoffman Electronics Corporation, makers of the solar batteries which operate the tiny transmitter in the Vanguard satellite, said theoretically the batteries could generate current forever.  And since the transmitter used transistors, which also did not wear out, the little set could operate indefinitely.
   The satellite's second radio had conventional mercury batteries.  They were expected to last two months.
Close race
   In Washington, Army scientist James Edson predicted the United States would fire a rocket to the moon within months, put a man on the moon in the early 1960s and set up a base there about 1975.  Mr Edson, assistant to the director of Army research and development, made the predictions in an address to the Civilian Club.
   He said both the United States and Russia were now capable of shooting a rocket to the moon, adding, "The race will be close."
   Mr Edson said whichever country controlled the moon would be able to strike any place on earth with armed rockets without much fear of retaliation.  He added it would be much easier to hit the earth from the moon than go from the earth to the moon.


Manawatu Daily Times,  Saturday 22 March 1958, page 7
Plea against programme of "Buck Rogers stunts"
Scientists urge peaceful use of space travel technologies

(Received 10 p.m.)  Los Angeles, March 21
   Dr Lloyd Dubridge, president of the California Institute of Technology said yesterday it was "utter nonsense" to regard the moon as the ultimate military base for launching of weapons on earth targets.
   Dr Dubridge, addressing the opening session of the 1958 Western space age conference, urged against permitting the United States space programme to develop into a "wild programme of Buck Rogers' stunts and insane pseudo-military expeditions."  He urged instead "conducting a bold and exciting programme of research and exploration."
   Dr Dubridge listed three primary reasons that would discount the military advantages of the moon, despite statements to the contrary by "some military generals who ought to know better."  A hydrogen warhead, plus men and equipment, would have to be transported 240,000 miles "just to shoot it 240,000 miles back to earth when the target is only 5000 miles away in the first place."  It would take a warhead five days to reach the earth because of space factors.  "The war might be over by then.  An intercontinental ballistic missile can reach any target on earth in 20 minutes."
   "If we have rockets good enough to land men and equipment on the moon, the enemy will surely have ones good enough to put a hydrogen bomb at the same spot."
   Dr Dubridge, whose jet propulsion laboratory at the institute played a major role in developing the United States satellite Explorer I, added: — "Either people will land on the moon for peaceful purposes by mutual agreement — or else we will surely launch the nuclear war here on earth which we are all trying to avoid."
   He said he thought that the challenge of the space age was to see "whether we can use the great new technologies of space travel for peaceful and scientific purposes — conducting a bold and exciting programme of research and exploration."

« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 08:50:26 AM by Kiwi »
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Offline bknight

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2015, 08:01:23 AM »
I have seen images of the Operation Starfish Prime and there was no mushroom cloud, just a ball of light expanding in all directions.  The mushroom cloud has dust/dirt/rocks/water sucked in from the point beneath the detonation and then being propelled upward since the forces up are not as contained as those down.  Then the material starts losing energy and begin spreading/falling back toward the earth.

Here is a quick video, poor quality
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Starfish+Prime+Test&Form=VQFRVP#view=detail&mid=B1274BC411498B5F391BB1274BC411498B5F391B
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Offline Count Zero

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2015, 11:42:49 AM »
Hot air rises.  Air heated to several thousand degrees rises very fast.  As the fireball rises, air rushes in from all directions, making the stem of the mushroom.  So no mushroom cloud in vacuum.

In fact, the fireball itself is mainly an atmospheric phenomenon.  The gamma rays from the nuclear reactions are absorbed by the air (in just a few hundred meters and re-radiated as x-rays, which are also promptly absorbed and re-radiated at lower frequencies, several times down to ultraviolet (where it is only partially absorbed) to visible light - where it is blinding to the eye.

In space, most of the gamma & x-rays stay in that form - fantastically energetic, but invisible to the eye.  The only visible effect you see is from the bomb casing getting vaporized, and its cloud of plasma spreading & cooling down through visible temperatures.  On the Moon the vaporized lunar material would add to this visible effect.

Here's some way slowed-down footage of Starfish Prime. Link  It is a series of clips from different magnifications, angles and distances.  I'm going to skip around a bit:

0:30 - 1:50:  Super-fast close-up of the bomb casing vaporizing.
6:04 - 6:40:  A wider angle view over a longer interval.  The expanding vaporized material hits the air which at that altitude is incredibly thin, but still there.  This weird, rarified blast has formed a bubble of even lower pressure.  The air outside collapses the bubble back on itself.
1:55 - 2:30:  Wider angle view from the ground looking straight-up.  The squiggly line is the exhaust/contrail of the rocket that launched the bomb.  The flash is from the x-rays that have travelled down and hit the atmosphere, got absorbed & re-radiated as visible light.  Thus this flash is several miles below the detonation.  The flash is immediately followed by a glow from plasma hitting the air.  Near the end of the clip you can see the ionized plasma spreading out along the magnetic field lines of the Earth.
5:11- 5:32:  My favorite clip - Wide angle from long distance.  The Moon is at center-left, and burst is in the lower-center, just above the horizon. At ~5:12 you get a very brief (1 frame?) flash from the x-rays impinging on the atmosphere.  By 5:14 the vaporized bomb-case bubble has formed & collapsed and is no longer visible.  However, a larger bubble of plasma can be seen moving outwards at high speed.  At 5:13 the lower edge hits the thicker air, causing a white glow.  Charged particles continue outwards and generate aurora-like reddish glows.  At ~5:16 I see some weird scintillation, but I don't know what it is.

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Offline Peter B

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2015, 01:07:18 PM »
...Meanwhile a Swedish engineer, Robert Engstroem, had warned scientists to consider carefully the possibility that disastrous tides might be created on earth by the explosion of a hydrogen bomb on the moon, the New York Times said today.
   The newspaper said Mr Engstroem had suggested, in a letter written to the American Rocket Society and the American Interplanetary Society, that a 20-megaton hydrogen bomb might disturb the celestial relationships between the moon and the earth.  The letter said this might be so much disturbed that a "mighty deluge" could occur on earth.

So, Heiwa isn't the first Swede to have odd ideas about objects in space...
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Offline Allan F

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2015, 04:03:49 PM »
Have to be a substantial bomb, to alter the orbit of the moon enough to be noticeable outside an observatory. So large, it would be impossible to launch it from Earth. The Tsar Bomba - 50 Megatons - a billion of them?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline bknight

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2015, 05:23:48 PM »
Have to be a substantial bomb, to alter the orbit of the moon enough to be noticeable outside an observatory. So large, it would be impossible to launch it from Earth. The Tsar Bomba - 50 Megatons - a billion of them?

Yes, 60K lbs. worth. each.  versus the 1.6 K lbs. for the W49 used in Starfish Prime.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2015, 10:41:45 PM »
I think a bomb exploding in space directly produces a brief but very bright visible flash. It is, after all, a very hot blackbody for a short time, radiating at all wavelengths even if it peaks in the X-ray region. IIRC, this flash was an even more serious threat to vision than a burst in the lower atmosphere because it was so bright and brief.

Offline bknight

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2015, 11:04:49 PM »
...

So, Heiwa isn't the first Swede to have odd ideas about objects in space...
Who is this Heiwa?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline smartcooky

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2015, 11:32:00 PM »
...

So, Heiwa isn't the first Swede to have odd ideas about objects in space...
Who is this Heiwa?

Anders Dorkman Bjorkman

WARNING: Reading the content of this website may endanger your mental health... YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!

http://heiwaco.tripod.com/moontravel.htm
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Chew

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2015, 11:40:01 PM »
Who is this Heiwa?

Start here: http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=269.0

And may God have mercy on your soul.

(TL;DR What I fondly recall about that thread is he didn't know you're supposed to use the rocket equation for computing fuel loads; when he was told about the rocket equation he claimed it is only used for acceleration and it didn't apply to deceleration.)

Offline bknight

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2015, 12:08:30 AM »
...

So, Heiwa isn't the first Swede to have odd ideas about objects in space...
Who is this Heiwa?

Anders Dorkman Bjorkman

WARNING: Reading the content of this website may endanger your mental health... YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!

http://heiwaco.tripod.com/moontravel.htm
The first blush is why does he keep repeating that volumes of fuel ARE NOT AVAILABLE?  Even with my limited time I can visit the NASA sites and get all the numbers that are needed.  Maybe he should stick to driving super tankers.
Thanks for the information.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline Allan F

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2015, 12:27:49 AM »
Because by WISHING information away, he can keep his delusions running. If he had to acknowledge the existence of the information, he'd be forced to admit (to himself, at least) that his ideas are nonsense.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2015, 08:40:07 AM »
Because by WISHING information away, he can keep his delusions running. If he had to acknowledge the existence of the information, he'd be forced to admit (to himself, at least) that his ideas are nonsense.


Vacuity can only exist in the absence of truth 
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline bknight

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2015, 08:46:35 AM »
Because by WISHING information away, he can keep his delusions running. If he had to acknowledge the existence of the information, he'd be forced to admit (to himself, at least) that his ideas are nonsense.


Vacuity can only exist in the absence of truth
In the minds of those that propose unscientific proposals that have not math to back it up. :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline BazBear

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Re: One giant explosion for mankind...
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2015, 06:01:08 AM »
Large conventional explosions can create mushroom clouds as well (in the atmosphere of course).

A couple of examples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Italian_battleship_Roma_%281940%29_exploding.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yamato_explosion.jpg
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