Author Topic: Hiroshima and Nagasaki  (Read 40126 times)

Offline gillianren

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2015, 12:05:24 PM »
There may have been an inflated causuaty figure given.  Being an ex army (field artillery,I think like  me) he most likely would have taken the course  of action that would reduce causlties of Allied forces.  However  the decision  must have been a heavy  one for him, or any rational person in the same position.

I took a college class on the history of the twentieth century once, and I expressed the opinion that I was glad I hadn't been the one to make the decision.  I never said it was right or wrong, which you'll note I'm still not entirely saying.  I just said I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to make it.  My whole class freaked out, because how dare I suggest that it wasn't the right decision?
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Offline bknight

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2015, 12:11:33 PM »
There may have been an inflated causuaty figure given.  Being an ex army (field artillery,I think like  me) he most likely would have taken the course  of action that would reduce causlties of Allied forces.  However  the decision  must have been a heavy  one for him, or any rational person in the same position.

I took a college class on the history of the twentieth century once, and I expressed the opinion that I was glad I hadn't been the one to make the decision.  I never said it was right or wrong, which you'll note I'm still not entirely saying.  I just said I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to make it.  My whole class freaked out, because how dare I suggest that it wasn't the right decision?
Then I conclude you are a rational person.  I suspect if they, individually, thought about the decision instead or the right/wrong implications, many would have the same belief.  Saying this I believe as my previous posts have indicated, the bombs were a necessary tactics towards ending the conflict.  It was not the only tipping point just another factor that helped the Emperor decide it was best for countries best option.
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Offline BazBear

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2015, 03:33:25 PM »
I don't think the casualty estimates of an invasion were too high. In fact some of the estimates coming from MacArthur's crony staff boys were ridiculously optimistic. The Japanese had stashed a bunch of Kamikaze aircraft and suicide midget subs etc. just for the projected invasion. In addition they had pretty much figured out the only good invasion points on Kyushu for the initial phase of the invasion, and had moved their troops accordingly. The losses to the Allied naval and land forces during the invasion would have been high, to say the least. And this is before the troops, once lodged ashore, had begun the slog up the island to their objective (about a third of the way up the island). Meanwhile, the strategic bombing campaign would have continued, taking FSM knows how many civilian lives.

And once the objectives of the first phase were achieved, we see it all done again the next year on the Tokyo plain during the second phase (assuming the Emperor hadn't come to his senses as he did in the real timeline).

Nuking them was a tough decision, and one I also am glad I didn't have to make, but I really think it was a no brainer given the situation, when such a weapon was available.
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Offline Al Johnston

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2015, 07:08:06 PM »
On the other hand, the Red Army went through Manchuria in a little over a week...
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2015, 10:55:01 PM »
I took a college class on the history of the twentieth century once, and I expressed the opinion that I was glad I hadn't been the one to make the decision.  I never said it was right or wrong, which you'll note I'm still not entirely saying.  I just said I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to make it.  My whole class freaked out, because how dare I suggest that it wasn't the right decision?

Could you imagine being one of the crew?

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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2015, 12:46:08 AM »
I don't think the casualty estimates of an invasion were too high. In fact some of the estimates coming from MacArthur's crony staff boys were ridiculously optimistic. The Japanese had stashed a bunch of Kamikaze aircraft and suicide midget subs etc. just for the projected invasion. In addition they had pretty much figured out the only good invasion points on Kyushu for the initial phase of the invasion, and had moved their troops accordingly. The losses to the Allied naval and land forces during the invasion would have been high, to say the least. And this is before the troops, once lodged ashore, had begun the slog up the island to their objective (about a third of the way up the island). Meanwhile, the strategic bombing campaign would have continued, taking FSM knows how many civilian lives.

And once the objectives of the first phase were achieved, we see it all done again the next year on the Tokyo plain during the second phase (assuming the Emperor hadn't come to his senses as he did in the real timeline).

Nuking them was a tough decision, and one I also am glad I didn't have to make, but I really think it was a no brainer given the situation, when such a weapon was available.

Thing that people seem to not understand is the enormous magnitude of the task.

The D-Day invasions were landings into France, an occupied country. German soldiers were the only enemy to be fought, the local inhabitants were not fighting on the German side. Also, the allies pulled off a number of cunning deceptions...Operations Fortitude, Graffham, Ironside, Zeppelin, Copperhead and Mincemeat in the lead up to D-Day, and Operations Taxable, Glimmer and Big Drum on the Day of the invasion. These operations fooled the Germans into believing the targets of the invasion were elsewhere or happening at different times than the real invasion. They were able to get away with these deceptions largely because of the short trip across the English channel under cover of darkness. Then, there was mainland Britain not far away for supplies and materiel.

It was a very different situation in Japan. Deceptions would have been much more difficult to pull off, as the Japanese would see them coming for miles. Also, the Japanese public believed that Emperor Shōwa  was a descendant of Amaterasu the sun goddess, devine, and a living god, and therefore, all powerful. The landing armies would have been fighting not only the IJA, but the entire population (72 million in 1945) armed with anything they could find to use as a weapon. Establishing a beachhead after landing would have been a monumental task that could very easily have gone terribly wrong, and nowhere to go if it failed. Casualty numbers could have been horrendous.

As others have said, bombing Hiroshima was probably the right decision (I'm not sure that Nagasaki was necessary) but I would not want that decision making responsibility to fall on me. I think if you asked any of the Allied soldiers whose job it would have been to invade Japan, if it was the right decision, you will pretty much get a resounding "yes"!
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2015, 03:30:12 AM »
Its a good point to compare it to the Normandy landings. Estimates are somewhere in the region of 4,400 Allied deaths on D-Day alone. In total, 450,000 Allied and German soldiers died in the Battle of Normandy. The memory of that would have been fresh in the decision-maker's minds. It's very probably that the death toll would have been higher in a Japanese invasion.
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Offline raven

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2015, 04:03:58 AM »
On the other hand,  Japan was in much more dire straights  logistically when the invasion would have happened, at least from my understanding. On the gripping hand, facing an army that was basically the entirely population armed with *something*, even if only spears and ceramic grenades, yeah .  . .

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2015, 04:43:49 AM »
Some time ago I was in a WW2 discussion on JREF and the subject of the invasion of Japan came up.  I found a report about "Operation Downfall", the planned invasion of Japan

"Operation Downfall" was planned to begin in May 1945, and if everything went according to plan, it would all be over eleven months later in April of 1946.

It took me a day or two to read and fully understand it, but once I did, Hiroshima became a no-brainer for me.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/MacArthur%20Reports/MacArthur%20V1/ch13.htm

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Offline bknight

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2015, 08:13:44 AM »
Its a good point to compare it to the Normandy landings. Estimates are somewhere in the region of 4,400 Allied deaths on D-Day alone. In total, 450,000 Allied and German soldiers died in the Battle of Normandy. The memory of that would have been fresh in the decision-maker's minds. It's very probably that the death toll would have been higher in a Japanese invasion.
I believe the figure of 450 K died should be casualties.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2015, 08:38:32 AM »
Its a good point to compare it to the Normandy landings. Estimates are somewhere in the region of 4,400 Allied deaths on D-Day alone. In total, 450,000 Allied and German soldiers died in the Battle of Normandy. The memory of that would have been fresh in the decision-maker's minds. It's very probably that the death toll would have been higher in a Japanese invasion.
I believe the figure of 450 K died should be casualties.

My apologies. You are correct, thanks for the correction. Killed, MIA, or wounded.

Nevertheless, the scale and cost of such an invasion, in terms of planning, material and lives would have weighed heavily on the minds of those making the decision to drop the bomb.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 08:40:53 AM by Zakalwe »
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Offline bknight

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2015, 09:03:40 AM »
In reading the book that smartcookie linked, form page 397:
Quote
In reply to a query from General Marshall requesting his opinion on the problem, General MacArthur pictured the future strategy in the Western Pacific as presenting three principal courses of action. First, the Allies could encircle Japan by further Allied expansion to the westward, at the same time deploying maximum air power preparatory to attacks on either Kyushu or Honshu in succession, or on Honshu only. A second course would be to isolate Japan completely by seizing bases to the west and endeavoring to bomb her into submission without actually landing in force on the Homeland beaches. The third course open was to attack Kyushu directly and install air forces to cover a decisive assault against the principal island of Honshu.5

My bolding in the paragraph.
Again this "bombing into submission" was the flawed thinking of many military brass.  It never worked, an invasion would have necessary. 

My speculation but it seems that the Allied plan was short on troops, but this was probably required since the plan was to use the forward troop concentrations, European reinforcements would not be available for some time.  I admired MacArthur but his estimations were traditionally low of opposing forces.  This may have been a psychological ploy to hide the true nature from his command.
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Offline raven

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2015, 03:29:13 PM »
From what I've read, the invasion plan would have involved dropping of the bombs on enemy defensive positions, with Allied troops entering those areas shortly after. Imagine what a cluster-FUBAR SNAFU that would have been! :o

Offline bknight

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2015, 03:34:48 PM »
From what I've read, the invasion plan would have involved dropping of the bombs on enemy defensive positions, with Allied troops entering those areas shortly after. Imagine what a cluster-FUBAR SNAFU that would have been! :o
Yes especially with the very inaccurate targeting rate of the B-29's.  That is one of the reasons, Curtis LeMay changed from the very inefficient high level bombing, to the low level and more accurate incendiary bombing
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Offline raven

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2015, 04:52:52 PM »
At least they never released the bat bombs, which was an actual thing and not something out of a Silver Age Batman comic.