Author Topic: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.  (Read 666945 times)

Offline twik

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #540 on: August 31, 2015, 12:13:04 PM »
The thing is, Baker already has an image of Schweickart testing the suit AND a direct quotation from the man himself. So he is basically calling him a flat out liar.

But I think in his own mind he has an out. If the testing wasn't done the way he wanted it, it doesn't prove anything. Because you couldn't possibly extrapolate from those tests and say that the PLSS worked. His testing is the only system that would ever be able to prove it. So if NASA didn't do it his way, they must have not been interested in knowing if the PLSS worked.

Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #541 on: August 31, 2015, 12:15:24 PM »
The thing is, Baker already has an image of Schweickart testing the suit AND a direct quotation from the man himself. So he is basically calling him a flat out liar.
Maybe Neil should stalk Rusty and jump out with a Bible and...
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #542 on: August 31, 2015, 12:25:25 PM »
I worked in the pre-Apollo space program helping to develop testing and verification procedures on-site for Atlas and Titan booster systems (at VAFB and DMAFB).

That's a pretty impressive CV. But clearly, by Neil's standards I don't believe that those vehicles worked as I have not had independent witnesses to verify their performance.

Quote
Believe me, extensive testing and verification was critical to anything space-related, especially to systems used both as our last line of defense and to boost humans into orbit. But then, that's no surprise to everyone here except one.

Shooting one's self in one's foot, quite literally, with nuclear warheads would be a bit of a home goal. You've got to be fairly sure that such vehicles do what they say on the tin.

Right, I was going out, but I'm not sure that my car safety features work. I'd like to have them tested independently, despite the whole world using seat belts, collapsible steering columns, air bags and crumple zones in their cars.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

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A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #543 on: August 31, 2015, 12:28:09 PM »
The thing is, Baker already has an image of Schweickart testing the suit AND a direct quotation from the man himself. So he is basically calling him a flat out liar.

Yes, but once his ineptitude for research had been exposed it was easier to call liar. People in glass houses and all that.  ::)
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #544 on: August 31, 2015, 01:03:17 PM »
I asked this before, but either you didn't see it or you didn't respond, Neil Baker. If this wouldn't work, why not come up with other solutions? Plenty of Apollo went through iterative designs. Just look at the changes in the LM design as the program went on. Let's say the engineers at Hamilton Standard found that testing with the sublimation cooling system wasn't working so well. Would they go 'Oh, hell, guess we're going to have to fake the whole darn thing', or would they try to work some other solution out?
I'm not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV, but that doesn't sound like something they would do.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #545 on: August 31, 2015, 01:09:38 PM »

The pharmaceutical industry would be crippled if they had to meet Neil's acid test for each drug they produce. Of course, the real issue here is that Neil believes he and the PLSS sublimator are special cases. He only makes this demand for the PLSS sublimator, where he has chosen a small piece of technology that he thinks does not work because he unable to carry out basic research (as shown by the record here). He thought he had all the aces up his sleeve. In his own words, if he can prove Apollo was hoaxed, maybe his 9-11 claims would be taken more seriously. Sadly for Neil, no one will ever take him seriously now, because we can point to the record here and show that he is a useless researcher that jumps horses and moves goalposts in an attempt to save face.

Neil - Having read Jason's two posts, he does know what he is talking about where biology and human science is concerned. He is also a keen Apollo enthusiast and that is evident from his postings at this forum and the old pro-boards.  In as much as Jay and sts60 know about aerospace engineering, and ka9q/smartcooky know about communication systems, and RAF knows about flight systems, and andromeda knows about physics, and OBM/Kiwi know about photography and its analysis. Sorry for those that I have not mentioned (Bob/Raven/AllanF/gwiz/peter/bknight/Apollo957/trebor/gillianren et al)

Neil, the people here know their stuff, and if we don't we tend not to comment and leave it to others with the expertise and knowledge. That's how this forum works, and that's because all of us know how science/engineering works. You do not. For the record, I know how to tie my shoelaces ;)
I'm not trained in any of those sciences/technologies so no problem here.  I'm interested in learning from those on the board of a passionate belief.

I'm not trained in them, either, but it's astonishing to discover that I actually understand sublimation better than Neil.

Another point here, Neil, is that proving Apollo to be a hoax (assuming it were, which it wasn't) proves nothing about 9/11.  They are two separate events.  You want to argue 9/11?  We have a segment of the board for that, where you can be shown to be just as ignorant as you are of Apollo.  (Seriously, I understand sublimation better than you do because of the aforementioned Amazing Disappearing Ice Cubes and a single course of Oceanography 101.)  But Apollo happened or didn't on its own merits, and what happened on 9/11 happened or didn't on its own merits.  When you try to connect them, you show a fundamental misunderstanding of, well, everything.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline ka9q

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #546 on: August 31, 2015, 01:19:12 PM »
There was even a contingency plan where he could turn off his oxygen loop heater and let the oxygen come from the cryogenic tank as a very cool gas.
Oxygen was stored in both the PLSS and OPS tanks at ambient temperature under high pressure. The OPS provided cooling by letting the oxygen flow once through the suit and out to space through a purge valve. It could provide only 30 or 60 minutes of operation even though the OPS bottles contained considerably more oxygen than the PLSS.

The PLSS was analogous to a diving rebreather; the OPS to SCUBA.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 01:22:44 PM by ka9q »

Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #547 on: August 31, 2015, 01:33:24 PM »

I'm not trained in them, either, but it's astonishing to discover that I actually understand sublimation better than Neil.
...
And this does not surprise me in any way after 37 pages of going around and around.  He gets shown almost 100% of what he seeks and still does not accept the facts.  It seems obvious to me that he doesn't really want the sublimator test, it is in operation on a routine basis on a space station he does not acknowledge. 
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Sus_pilot

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #548 on: August 31, 2015, 01:57:57 PM »
Well this was worth my while for three things today:

I knew that it was the bell that was Big Ben, thanks to Arthur C. Clarke, but never knew why.

I now know how adjustments to the Westminster Clock are made.

And that Davis-Monthan is more than a storage/reclamation depot.

Offline Neil Baker

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #549 on: August 31, 2015, 02:06:21 PM »
The last thing I read on this site last night was someone telling me that testing a spacesuit with an astronaut in it was immoral.

When I was in the Navy I had to attend firefighting school three times where they would make us don an oxygen breathing apparatus (OBA) and enter a steel compartment on land modeled after the compartment of a ship that was engulfed in flames with smoke pouring out of it to put out the fire. It was seriously dangerous. People would sometimes get hurt. It was scary. But it was a tremendous confidence booster. We had fire drills twice a day on the carrier I was stationed aboard and we once had a bad fire in a paint locker that we had to extinguish. After the USS Forrestal fire, nobody could serve aboard ship without having gone through firefighting school. The entire crew, from the highest ranking officer to the lowest enlisted, consisted of trained firefighters that had experienced fighting fires in smoke-filled fire-engulged rooms while wearing an OBA.

In boot camp we had to enter a teargas-filled room wearing a gas mask and then take off the mask before rushing out of the room suffering the expected horrible symptoms.

So this situation where it appears due to alleged morality reasons that no spacesuit has been tested in a high vacuum chamber with a person in it just makes the alarms in my head go off even louder.  It's like saying it would be immoral to fight a fire in a compartment on land because it's dangerous; let's wait until we have a fire on a ship to fight one.

I think it's common sense. If I'm going to the ISS to perform an EVA, I first don the spacesuit and enter the high vacuum chamber on Earth and pump down to 1e-6 torr. I probably want to do it many times. While I'm in there they shut off the sublimator to perform the recovery drill. They drill other stuff too, loss of electricity, loss of air, loss of spacesuit integrity. I'd probably want to go in with another astronaut to practice the buddy system of PLSS troubleshooting and emergency procedures. And while we're in there we want the whole thing video recorded for replay and post-test analysis.

There's nothing immoral about it. It's very moral. There's not a single NASA astrounaut that has trained for an EVA that shouldn't have some test video. It's absurd that it doesn't exist.

If somehow the witnessed test that I want was ordered, I doubt they'd find any volunteers to wear the suit inside while the chamber got pumped down to high vacuum. I'm still doubting. I lean even a bit more toward hoax.


Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #550 on: August 31, 2015, 02:14:45 PM »
...
If somehow the witnessed test that I want was ordered, I doubt they'd find any volunteers to wear the suit inside while the chamber got pumped down to high vacuum. I'm still doubting. I lean even a bit more toward hoax.
I'm utterly flabbergasted by your stating the obvious.  But the volunteers work in spacesuits cooled by the very device you ask.  You have been shown many images and yet you fail to connect the obvious to the test you so blatantly ask, which by the way will not ever happen.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #551 on: August 31, 2015, 02:33:37 PM »
The last thing I read on this site last night was someone telling me that testing a spacesuit with an astronaut in it was immoral.
Oh, goody. Reading comprehension fail.

When I was in the Navy I had to attend firefighting school three times where they would make us don an oxygen breathing apparatus (OBA) and enter a steel compartment on land modeled after the compartment of a ship that was engulfed in flames with smoke pouring out of it to put out the fire. It was seriously dangerous. People would sometimes get hurt. It was scary. But it was a tremendous confidence booster. We had fire drills twice a day on the carrier I was stationed aboard and we once had a bad fire in a paint locker that we had to extinguish. After the USS Forrestal fire, nobody could serve aboard ship without having gone through firefighting school. The entire crew, from the highest ranking officer to the lowest enlisted, consisted of trained firefighters that had experienced fighting fires in smoke-filled fire-engulged rooms while wearing an OBA.

In boot camp we had to enter a teargas-filled room wearing a gas mask and then take off the mask before rushing out of the room suffering the expected horrible symptoms.
So what? NASA is not a military outfit, different health and safety rules apply, and it would add nothing to test a sublimator with an actual live astronaut present. The sublimator simply deals with a heat load. Whence that heat load originates is irrelevant. If you are going to claim that it does, then you are faced with the inevitable consequence that you must perforce claim that the sublimator is able to distinguish between human body heat and other sources of heat, by magic. You must claim that there are different and identifiable characteristics to heat energy all of which are detected by a sublimator and that such data is used by the sublimator to modulate it's behaviour.

All of which is rendered moot by the fact that a sublimator does not care what the heat source is, you have been provided with pictures, technical reports, peer reviewed papers and video as requested and as denied by you to even exist.

So this situation where it appears due to alleged morality reasons that no spacesuit has been tested in a high vacuum chamber with a person in it just makes the alarms in my head go off even louder.  It's like saying it would be immoral to fight a fire in a compartment on land because it's dangerous; let's wait until we have a fire on a ship to fight one.
You have been provided with such. Stop pretending you have not.

I think it's common sense. If I'm going to the ISS to perform an EVA, I first don the spacesuit and enter the high vacuum chamber on Earth and pump down to 1e-6 torr. I probably want to do it many times. While I'm in there they shut off the sublimator to perform the recovery drill. They drill other stuff too, loss of electricity, loss of air, loss of spacesuit integrity. I'd probably want to go in with another astronaut to practice the buddy system of PLSS troubleshooting and emergency procedures. And while we're in there we want the whole thing video recorded for replay and post-test analysis.
And they do those very things. You are labouring under the delusion that all data must be uploaded to the internet, even though it plainly is not, and that your established ineptitude at finding that which has been uploaded is probative of anything other than your incompetence.

There's nothing immoral about it. It's very moral. There's not a single NASA astrounaut that has trained for an EVA that shouldn't have some test video. It's absurd that it doesn't exist.
It is immoral to exposed people to insane and pointless risk.

If somehow the witnessed test that I want was ordered, I doubt they'd find any volunteers to wear the suit inside while the chamber got pumped down to high vacuum. I'm still doubting. I lean even a bit more toward hoax.
Yet that is exactly what is done. You have been provided with photographic, video, scientific and witness evidence that you claim does not exist. You have demonstrated your ineptitude at research to the point where you had to beg "How did you find that?" like a plaintive child.

At this point, you have burned your own credibility and any goodwill helping you find or learn anything. You have amply demonstrated that credibility, finding, researching and learning are simply skills with which you are negatively equipped. I wouldn't have believed it physically possible, but you simultaneously suck and blow at all of those and you have admitted so in your very own posts.

Offline darren r

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #552 on: August 31, 2015, 02:41:14 PM »
There's not a single NASA astrounaut that has trained for an EVA that shouldn't have some test video. It's absurd that it doesn't exist.


Why this fixation on video? Maybe they did test each individual suit to the satisfaction of the astronaut that would be using it. It doesn't follow that they would automatically video it. How would video be of any use or help?


If somehow the witnessed test that I want was ordered, I doubt they'd find any volunteers to wear the suit inside while the chamber got pumped down to high vacuum. I'm still doubting. I lean even a bit more toward hoax.


Does the efficiency or otherwise of the sublimator make any difference to the effectiveness of the spacesuit in a vacuum, at least for a short while? Are you suggesting the spacesuits didn't work now?
" I went to the God D**n Moon!" Byng Gordon, 8th man on the Moon.

Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #553 on: August 31, 2015, 02:50:00 PM »
Again, Neil Baker, you seek forget they wouldn't need to have the tester in the suit in the room for the entire atmospheric removal process, even if they were to do a manned test.
Let's go back to this page. Even though you've linked it in your own posts, you don't seem to be reading it, otherwise you would have noticed this, under Access.
Quote
Access:    a) 12.2 m (40 ft) diameter side-hinged door
b) Dual crewlocks at floor level and 9.4 m (31 ft) level, measuring 2.4 m high, 3.4 m wide, and 3.9m long (8 x 11 x 12.8 ft)
c) 13.7 m (45 ft) diameter (180( rotating floor
d) Door at 18.9 m (62 ft) level
e) Catwalk platform at 9.4 m (31 ft) and 18.9 m (62 ft) levels
[bolded for emphases]
Now, I'm not an engineer, but I know what an airlock is, and I am guessing, guessing mind, a crewlock is something of the same breed, with a similar purpose. If they were to do a manned test, it would be the perfect access way for the tester to enter the chamber without having to wait out, as you seem to imply, the entire evacuation process.

Offline Neil Baker

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #554 on: August 31, 2015, 03:03:42 PM »
NASA has never publicly demonstrated before independent witnesses a spacesuit with ice sublimator cooling system in a high vacuum chamber on Earth duplicating environmental conditions of orbit.

Now it appears they've never tested a spacesuited astronaut while in a vacuum chamber at all except for that last documented test way back in 1966 when the suit failed causing a near fatality.

I'm puzzled more why they won't even show a video of an ice sublimator in a vacuum chamber with the astronaut outside running on the treadmill.

Our space program is currently a mythological faith-based thing. You insist upon it remaining so.