Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.

[Dalhousie]

Especially true, given that the US must perforce rent seat space on russian launchers right now. And return to earth on russian Soyuz re-entry vehicles. The inevitable consequence of Neil's position is that they must be in on it. And ESA.  And..Well the only one who isn't in on it is Neil.

Also Japan, Canada, Brazil, China......

. . .  incredibly wealthy private citizens . . .

South Korea!

[bknight]

 . . .  incredibly wealthy private citizens . . .

That would be an experience, unfortunately I don't have the cash nor the friends.

[nomuse]

Friend of mine mused that here you are, incredibly wealthy, used to getting your own way, you paid an amazing amount of money to go into space...then some CIA guys come up to you at Baikonur or whatever and say, "Sorry, you aren't actually going to space today. Nobody can, nobody ever has. And no, you aren't getting your money back. We will ask you, however, to lie to everyone who ever asks and act enthusiastic about how great it felt to fly in space. Okay?"

[bknight]

Friend of mine mused that here you are, incredibly wealthy, used to getting your own way, you paid an amazing amount of money to go into space...then some CIA guys come up to you at Baikonur or whatever and say, "Sorry, you aren't actually going to space today. Nobody can, nobody ever has. And no, you aren't getting your money back. We will ask you, however, to lie to everyone who ever asks and act enthusiastic about how great it felt to fly in space. Okay?"

Yes but we have to pay off Neil so he won't blab. 

[ka9q]

Neil, a very simple question:

What law(s) of physics would the Apollo PLSS sublimator violate?

If none, why do you doubt its operation?

I've answered this question already but I'm happy to answer again.
None.

So, then we're done?

[raven]

Friend of mine mused that here you are, incredibly wealthy, used to getting your own way, you paid an amazing amount of money to go into space...then some CIA guys come up to you at Baikonur or whatever and say, "Sorry, you aren't actually going to space today. Nobody can, nobody ever has. And no, you aren't getting your money back. We will ask you, however, to lie to everyone who ever asks and act enthusiastic about how great it felt to fly in space. Okay?"

I made a very similar point back on page 27. As far as I've been able to tell, Neil did not reply, but maybe it's been hidden in cyberspace, awaiting my agitation.

[gwiz]

Only Luna 24 and the unsuccessful Luna 23 had the flexible core, in order to get a longer sample than the earlier Lunas.

Do you have a source for that?  The Luna 16 core was 35 cm long and had to fit in a 25 cm return capsule.  Photos of the core suggest also a flexible core tube.  Luna 20 returned 25 cm of core. Luna 23 and 24 had the ability to drill much deeper than the earlier Lunas, 2 m as opposed to 38 cm.

The return capsule diameter was 50 cm.  The cutaway drawing of the Luna 16/20 return capsule shows the soil container is straight.  Here's a good article with lots of references:
http://shvachko.net/teller/?p=1362

[bknight]

Friend of mine mused that here you are, incredibly wealthy, used to getting your own way, you paid an amazing amount of money to go into space...then some CIA guys come up to you at Baikonur or whatever and say, "Sorry, you aren't actually going to space today. Nobody can, nobody ever has. And no, you aren't getting your money back. We will ask you, however, to lie to everyone who ever asks and act enthusiastic about how great it felt to fly in space. Okay?"

I made a very similar point back on page 27. As far as I've been able to tell, Neil did not reply, but maybe it's been hidden in cyberspace, awaiting my agitation.

So start agitating and recover it from black hole it went.

[bknight]

Only Luna 24 and the unsuccessful Luna 23 had the flexible core, in order to get a longer sample than the earlier Lunas.

Do you have a source for that?  The Luna 16 core was 35 cm long and had to fit in a 25 cm return capsule.  Photos of the core suggest also a flexible core tube.  Luna 20 returned 25 cm of core. Luna 23 and 24 had the ability to drill much deeper than the earlier Lunas, 2 m as opposed to 38 cm.

The return capsule diameter was 50 cm.  The cutaway drawing of the Luna 16/20 return capsule shows the soil container is straight.  Here's a good article with lots of references:
http://shvachko.net/teller/?p=1362

Seems likely that some of the cored material may have dropped out since it only returned about 70 more than Luna 16.  But the engineering is good.

[JayUtah]

So, then we're done?

You wish.  As Sts60 pointed out, sublimators are entirely irrelevant to his argument.  It's the McGuffin.  It serves no purpose other than to enable the plot of the "movie" Neil Baker is playing out in his mind where he's the big hero that brings the U.S. government to account for its sins.  Baker ignores all of the science and physics and focuses exclusively on policy -- something that revolves around opinions rather than facts.  Facts bring a discussion to a screeching conclusion rather abruptly.  Opinions do not.  They can be argued ad nauseam -- in Baker's case for eight years -- using the same rhetoric over and over again.

It's his judgment that sublimators are insufficiently tested.  It's his judgment that the record of prior tests is unclear or incomplete.  It's his judgment that the only way to restore NASA's credibility is to let him personally witness a test.  It's his judgment what should constitute that test.  It's his judgment how intrusive or expensive such observation would be.  As many have noted, his entire argument is just a colossal expression of his own egotism.  He dismisses all other members of his profession as ideologically compromised; he's the only one who can save the day.

His actual argument couldn't have any less to do with sublimators than it does now.

[onebigmonkey]

It's really just a way of annoying people and getting a seat to himself:

Thursday, November 12, 2009

The airport is the worst and it's mostly men that are so rude. I have a whole series of rehearsed fake phone conversations that I use when I'm around obnoxious phone talkers. I start loudly spewing the rudest most offensive politically incorrect opinions to an imaginary person on the other end of the conversation. It's a way to be on a soapbox disguised as someone talking on the phone. I talk about how the Taleban had nothing to do with 9/11. How 9/11 was a Zionist job. How the holocaust was a hoax. How we never landed on the moon. etc. I get strange looks but so what; I'll be anonymously seated in a separate airplane from most of them within a short time and I have the benefit of knowing none of them has a weapon.

From this marvellous website detailing his insane ramblings:

http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?id=3603

I particularly like the one where wants people committing suicide to send him money so he can build his own Tracey Island.

[bknight]

It's really just a way of annoying people and getting a seat to himself:

From this marvellous website detailing his insane ramblings:

http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?id=3603

I particularly like the one where wants people committing suicide to send him money so he can build his own Tracey Island.

Clearly a deranged individual.  Its of little wonder that UCSB that him under surveillance.

[JayUtah]

Clearly a deranged individual.

Which is only relevant to this discussion because he sets up his personal judgment as the standard.  If it were a matter strictly of fact or logic, his mental state would be irrelevant.  Even hard-core schizophrenics are able to do proper logical analysis.  So if he says "I can't find any information on sublimators, therefore they don't work." that's immediately rejectable as an argument from silence.  We don't even have to accuse him of slothful research; the reason why he doesn't have information doesn't bear on the lack of sustenance in the conclusion.  But if his argument is, "I don't think sublimators have been adequately tested, or the tests documented properly," then some subject-matter judgment comes into play.  The proponent's level of understanding and possible biases must then be examined.  You then cross over very quickly from subject-matter expertise (i.e., engineering testing) into matters of general judgment:  the ability to weigh variables in conflict and arrive at a "satisficial" ("satisfactory" + "sacrificial") solution.  (Author Henry Petroski coined the term "satisfice" to describe engineering reasoning among conflicting interests.)

[bknight]

Which is only relevant to this discussion because he sets up his personal judgment as the standard.  If it were a matter strictly of fact or logic, his mental state would be irrelevant.  Even hard-core schizophrenics are able to do proper logical analysis.  So if he says "I can't find any information on sublimators, therefore they don't work." that's immediately rejectable as an argument from silence.  We don't even have to accuse him of slothful research; the reason why he doesn't have information doesn't bear on the lack of sustenance in the conclusion.  But if his argument is, "I don't think sublimators have been adequately tested, or the tests documented properly," then some subject-matter judgment comes into play.  The proponent's level of understanding and possible biases must then be examined.  You then cross over very quickly from subject-matter expertise (i.e., engineering testing) into matters of general judgment:  the ability to weigh variables in conflict and arrive at a "satisficial" ("satisfactory" + "sacrificial") solution.  (Author Henry Petroski coined the term "satisfice" to describe engineering reasoning among conflicting interests.)

From your extensive debates with the HB's Neil's behavior is atypical then?

[onebigmonkey]

He helpfully listed his CV on Craigslist.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040426044244/http://oceanchinampa.com/BakerResume.pdf

I'm impressed that he was Propulsion Plant Operator on the USS Enterprise, which at means he as at least conversant with dilithium crystals,

His alma mater's current prospectus

http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeofengineering/departmentofmechanicalengineering/materialsengineering_major/

lists Phase Transformations in Material Processing, Thermodynamics of Materials Systems and an Introduction To Thermodynamics, Fluids And Heat Transfer, so assuming no real significant changes in what is necessary for a Materials Engineer to know there really should be no excuse for claiming ignorance on sublimation as a process.

Thank God his meltdown didn't happen at Los Alamos National Laboratory, but if he's in touch with any former colleagues there maybe they could make use of the vacuum chamber for him:

http://www.lanl.gov/science/NSS/issue1_2011/story3full.shtml

Neil understands the science full well, and the scientific method, and how to report scientifically. He is choosing not to in order to pursue what he sees as a righteous crusade.