Author Topic: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...  (Read 96105 times)

Offline bknight

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #135 on: September 12, 2015, 12:53:21 PM »
Quote
Im not the one selling that the Apollo program happened.  Anyone who says it did happen needs to stump up with the evidence. The only question that is perhaps legitimate from your perspective might be, 'what is it about the evidence (that Apollo occurred the way it did) that you doubt'. Relying on 'historical fact' is idiotic.  All evidence, unless you witnessed it, is heresay. just so i can understand your position, what is this 'historical record of events' you speak of? What is it?

He clearly isn't interested in real discussion. He's been asked at least a half-dozen questions, all of which he's continually ignored, to come back with some other piece of irrelevant claim.

What would be a single-point response to someone who is intent on denying the entire historical record?

My bolding on the evidence.  One may witness any historical event after the fact, if math or technical facts point to the event.  Photos "could" have been made on Earth.  The liftoff, orbital insertion, TLI, Lunar orbit, LM descent/ascent, TEI can all be mathematically proved.  Lunar rocks are not Earth rocks made to look like lunar rocks.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline darren r

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #136 on: September 12, 2015, 03:34:22 PM »


What would be a single-point response to someone who is intent on denying the entire historical record?

There isn't one. It's a philosophical dead end. You either accept that there is empirical truth or you don't. If he wants to believe that he's hooked up to the Matrix and that everything except him is imaginary then that's his lookout. Ultimately, he doesn't want a debate. He just wants to be a smartarse.
" I went to the God D**n Moon!" Byng Gordon, 8th man on the Moon.

Offline raven

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #137 on: September 12, 2015, 03:39:01 PM »
Ask him if he would try to press charges then if he was assaulted. If he does, then unwitnessed evidence must be more than hearsay.

Offline bknight

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #138 on: September 12, 2015, 03:41:17 PM »

I've been following another random thread on YT, and I've discovered this one fool who thinks he's a philosopher, in that he keeps coming back to what is seen, versus what is known. The thing that I don't get, and I can't understand how anyone would even think this, is that he keeps suggesting that the entire historic record, all of history, is fake, and that nothing can be known because no one saw everything with their own eyes, and even if they did, it can't be trusted, because the person reading the account wasn't a witness of the event.
What is the link to the video?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Kiwi

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #139 on: September 13, 2015, 07:36:45 AM »
...I've been working on a document containing straight questions intended to derail or limit hoaxers...

Here's one I did back in 2003
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/6040-Fox-Special-rescreening-in-NZ-24-June-2003?p=102901#post102901

Use anything you want.  I just wanted brief answers to the major claims as a result of the Fox TV Special "Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?"

You might find the one about "no stars", and the explanation in the following post, useful, because it uses a nice big number, 30,000. Although the next post shows that over 100,000 was a better number.

Do you know about JayUtah's website, Clavius?
http://www.clavius.org

And Bob B's site?
http://www.braeunig.us/space/hoax.htm
Plus it has enough maths to blow most HBs' brains.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 09:16:26 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline bknight

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #140 on: September 13, 2015, 07:52:15 AM »

Here's one I did back in 2003
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/6040-Fox-Special-rescreening-in-NZ-24-June-2003?p=102901#post102901

Use anything you want.  I just wanted brief answers to the major claims as a result of the Fox TV Special "Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?"

...
Good list kiwi.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Philthy

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #141 on: September 13, 2015, 11:31:57 AM »
Here is another pretty good site:

http://www.moonhoaxdebunked.com/

Phil
The capacity of conspiracy theorists to deny science and hand-wave away evidence is infinite, as is their level of stupid. -- Smartcooky

Offline raven

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #142 on: September 13, 2015, 11:38:05 AM »
Here's the one Phil Plait did, wow, 15 years ago.

Offline sts60

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #143 on: September 13, 2015, 11:49:28 AM »
That guy clearly has a handle on neither the Apollo record nor the meaning of "hearsay".

Offline bknight

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #144 on: September 13, 2015, 11:55:28 AM »
That guy clearly has a handle on neither the Apollo record nor the meaning of "hearsay".
About whom are you speaking?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline smartcooky

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #145 on: September 13, 2015, 03:20:27 PM »
I've been following another random thread on YT, and I've discovered this one fool who thinks he's a philosopher, in that he keeps coming back to what is seen, versus what is known. The thing that I don't get, and I can't understand how anyone would even think this, is that he keeps suggesting that the entire historic record, all of history, is fake, and that nothing can be known because no one saw everything with their own eyes, and even if they did, it can't be trusted, because the person reading the account wasn't a witness of the event.

In addition to the standard mobile goalposts, the handwaving, the flat ignoring of legit questions, and all the subtle reframing of the questions being posed, this guy is frustrating.

It really is a waste of time and effort trying to argue with such a person, because their disconnect with anything even remotely resembling reality is so total. The Stupid can manifest itself in weird and unexpected ways.

Try arguing this: WW2 was real because there are people who are presently still alive who personally witnessed it, but WW1 is fake because there aren't (the last surviving participant was Florence Green, a WAAF, who died in 2012, aged 110).

1. Was WW1 real before she died and did it only become fake after her death?

2. Some time around 2045 onwards, will WW2 will go from being real to fake when the last WW2 participant dies?

If you can't convince them they are wrong by making them think about the answers to these questions, then you should stop wasting your time because they are beyond any hope or help.

To paraphrase Douglas Adams, The Stupid has a firm grip on them in exactly the same way that reality doesn't. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 03:22:29 PM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline raven

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #146 on: September 13, 2015, 03:25:54 PM »
It's even worse than that. World War 2 is fake because Mister Solipsism didn't witness it themselves.

Offline bknight

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #147 on: September 13, 2015, 03:33:07 PM »
It's even worse than that. World War 2 is fake because Mister Solipsism didn't witness it themselves.
Since I didn't witness your birth firsthand then you don't exist? ::)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline raven

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #148 on: September 13, 2015, 03:36:11 PM »
It's even worse than that. World War 2 is fake because Mister Solipsism didn't witness it themselves.
Since I didn't witness your birth firsthand then you don't exist? ::)
Apparently! Also, as noted above, you can not seek redress for any crime the judge and jury did not themselves witness.

Offline bknight

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Re: HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...
« Reply #149 on: September 13, 2015, 03:38:19 PM »

Apparently! Also, as noted above, you can not seek redress for any crime the judge and jury did not themselves witness.
This will set jurisprudence back 2000 years or more.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan