Author Topic: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database  (Read 16589 times)

Offline AstroBrant

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Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« on: September 02, 2015, 11:17:06 PM »
Can someone remind me of what the B/B0 input option means? (range from 1 to 1000)
It's labeled as "Magnetic field values," but that doesn't help me to know what I'm looking at if I put values in.
Thanks.
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2015, 11:37:05 PM »
I explain it in the following article.  Scroll down to the second image where I show it graphically.  There are equations to convert polar coordinates to L and B/Bo coordinates.

http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/VABraddose.htm

Also, below is an old thread in which this was discussed.

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=644.0
 
 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 11:52:08 PM by Bob B. »

Offline bknight

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2015, 12:05:16 AM »
Can someone remind me of what the B/B0 input option means? (range from 1 to 1000)
It's labeled as "Magnetic field values," but that doesn't help me to know what I'm looking at if I put values in.
Thanks.
Looking for material for a new video or just some information to debunk the HB's?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline AstroBrant

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2015, 09:52:54 AM »
Can someone remind me of what the B/B0 input option means? (range from 1 to 1000)
It's labeled as "Magnetic field values," but that doesn't help me to know what I'm looking at if I put values in.
Thanks.
Looking for material for a new video or just some information to debunk the HB's?

I ran into another hoax nut, who I referred to the database. I anticipated that he might want to know what kinds of values to put in. I remembered that it had something to do with the distance from the magnetic equator, but didn't remember what the values meant. There were some directions somewhere for how to use the database, but I couldn't remember where they were, either.
May your skies be clear and your thinking even clearer.
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Offline AstroBrant

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2015, 10:35:10 AM »
I explain it in the following article.  Scroll down to the second image where I show it graphically.  There are equations to convert polar coordinates to L and B/Bo coordinates.

http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/VABraddose.htm

Also, below is an old thread in which this was discussed.

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=644.0

Thanks for getting back to me, and sorry about taking so long to reply. Funny, I was just reading your paper again yesterday and saw where you explained it. But I am still having trouble understanding what the B/B0 input values will do and how big λ will be, either in degrees or Earth radii. (I am barely smart enough to figure out that B/B0 = 1 means on the geomagnetic equator, or the densest portions of the belts.)

Also, thanks for the link to that other thread. It leaves me with the question, has anyone ever contacted CCMC and asked them to just post a damn primer on how to use this database and how to make coordinate conversions?

As long as I'm here, though, I might as well ask you about something else which has come up again. I give the links you your articles on radiation and blast craters frequently. A couple of times people have raised the issue of your credentials. I find your papers very enlightening, thorough, and solidly based in math and physics, but I'm really not in a position to evaluate them with my humble master's equivalency in secondary education.  :-[

You are right up front about your academic and professional credentials, but as I'm sure you've seen, critics will challenge your expertise in this area. Have you ever considered having some solidly established PhD aerospace engineers or physicists publicly evaluate and endorse your work? I'm particularly interested in this kind of peer review on your topics of rocket propulsion, radiation, and craters. Or, perish the thought, have you ever considered submitting them for peer review to a respected journal? There are so few people who are highly qualified in these fields and are willing to take the time to help in the goal of educating dissenters. So the kind of work that people like you and Jay are willing to do really does deserve academic attention, IMHO.

Hey, if you ever do get such support, please don't include Michio Kaku! I've had to clean up after him too many times.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 10:43:30 AM by AstroBrant »
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2015, 02:09:48 PM »
Thanks for getting back to me, and sorry about taking so long to reply. Funny, I was just reading your paper again yesterday and saw where you explained it. But I am still having trouble understanding what the B/B0 input values will do and how big λ will be, either in degrees or Earth radii. (I am barely smart enough to figure out that B/B0 = 1 means on the geomagnetic equator, or the densest portions of the belts.)

I find the L and B/Bo coordinates to be rather bizarre.  They make sense given the context but there is nothing very intuitive about them.  What they do is define a location within Earth's magnetic field.  Here is an image we can use for reference:

https://www.patana.ac.th/secondary/science/anrophysics/ntopic6/images/magnetic_field_earth.jpg

Each blue line represents a magnetic field line.  A particular magnetic field line can be identified by the L coordinate, i.e. its radial distance from the center of Earth measured in the geomagnetic plane.  Once we've chosen a particular magnetic field line, we can move along that magnetic field line by either looping around toward the north magnetic pole or looping around toward the south magnetic pole.  As we move away from the magnetic equator, the strength of the magnetic field line weakens.  We can there define our location along the magnetic field line by comparing the strength of the line at the location to the strength of the line at the equator.  This is expressed as the ratio B/Bo, where B is the strength at our particular location and Bo is the strength at the equator.

For example, let's say our coordinates are L = 2 and B/Bo = 0.5.  To find our position we first move 2 Earth radii out from the center of Earth at the geomagnetic equator.  We then select the magnetic field line located at the position.  We now move along that particular field line until its strength is reduced to 1/2 what it was as the equator.  We are now at the location defined by the coordinates L = 2 and B/Bo = 0.5.

The polar coordinates R and λ are much easier to understand.  R and λ are derived from the trajectory of the spacecraft.  The relationship between R, λ and L, B/Bo are defined in my web page.  If the position of the spacecraft is known in polar coordinates, its position L, B/Bo coordinates can be easily found using the equations.

Also, thanks for the link to that other thread. It leaves me with the question, has anyone ever contacted CCMC and asked them to just post a damn primer on how to use this database and how to make coordinate conversions?

That would certainly be helpful.  I think it took me a couple of days to dig up the answer, and I'm not sure I would have understood it without the help of people here.

As long as I'm here, though, I might as well ask you about something else which has come up again. I give the links you your articles on radiation and blast craters frequently.

I'm not entirely happy with the blast crater article.  I went way overboard with it.  It should have been just a simple back of the envelope calculation and I made it way more complicated than it needed to be.  I don't mind getting complicated when I'm computing something that has a definite answer, such as the trajectory of Apollo 11, but the blast crater computation is just a ballpark solution.  I've been meaning to rewrite it and strip it down to just the bare essentials.

A couple of times people have raised the issue of your credentials.

My credentials are irrelevant if I'm correct.  They need to challenge me on the merits of what I've written, not on what my credentials are.

I find your papers very enlightening, thorough, and solidly based in math and physics

Thank you.

Have you ever considered having some solidly established PhD aerospace engineers or physicists publicly evaluate and endorse your work?

I usually ask the people at this forum to review my work.  We have physics PhDs and aerospace engineers among our regulars.  Other than that, I haven't considered it.  Not because I wouldn't value having my work reviewed and endorsed by others, but because I don't want to bother anybody with it.  The people here are happy to volunteer their time, but I feel uncomfortable asking someone who doesn't share my interest to spend any of their valuable professional time on this hoax stuff.

I'm particularly interested in this kind of peer review on your topics of rocket propulsion, radiation, and craters. Or, perish the thought, have you ever considered submitting them for peer review to a respected journal?

I don't think anything I've done is original.  It might be original in the context of debunking the moon hoax theory, but clearly the things I've written about have already been extensively studied and written about by professionals.  In the big picture, my work isn't all that important.

Offline bknight

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2015, 03:31:55 PM »
...
I don't think anything I've done is original.  It might be original in the context of debunking the moon hoax theory, but clearly the things I've written about have already been extensively studied and written about by professionals.  In the big picture, my work isn't all that important.
I disagree with your modest interpretation of your work.  I believe it clearly shows that lay people given the right amount of time and work may prove for themselves that everything that Apollo stood for is accurate.
Quote
My credentials are irrelevant if I'm correct.  They need to challenge me on the merits of what I've written, not on what my credentials are.
I agree 100%, number and formulas are difficult to fake. :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline AstroBrant

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2015, 02:35:01 PM »
Thanks, Bob.

As for the crater article, I understand how you feel. There are so many variables which require guesswork that it makes the effort seem somewhat wasted. But just the fact that someone has tried to do it makes it worthwhile. I'm perfectly satisfied with the notion of "this doesn't give exact values, but it gives us a useful range, which effectively debunks the hoax claims." In any case, if you're going to revise it, I'm looking forward to what you come up with.

The information you gave me on B/B0 was useful. Even though I may not be able to figure out exactly how far off-equator a certain value is, just using a range of values which will show the maximum radiation for a given L value still makes the point. The only thing I'd like to know now is what would be an approximate value for the Apollo trajectories. Your table went up to 8.

Re. your credentials, I have often made the same statement concerning other people's and mine as well: that the credentials are not all that important. It's the merit of the argument itself which should be evaluated. Whenever anyone criticizes my use of your articles, I just ask them to try to refute your work on the basis of its content. The critic usually goes away at that point. (Conspiracy theorists react to math about the way a cat reacts to a cobra.) I've pointed out that a non-credentialed person can be quite capable of making an ironclad argument, while a few people with impressive credentials can come up with some really bad ones.

Which reminds me, I need to make a post requesting feedback on my flat Earth arguments and illustrations in Photobucket.
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2015, 07:12:16 PM »
The information you gave me on B/B0 was useful. Even though I may not be able to figure out exactly how far off-equator a certain value is, just using a range of values which will show the maximum radiation for a given L value still makes the point. The only thing I'd like to know now is what would be an approximate value for the Apollo trajectories. Your table went up to 8.

I don't understand your question, but if it is just Apollo 11's positional coordinates that you are looking for, the following should give you everything you need.  It goes to 11.

http://www.braeunig.us/misc/Apollo_11_TLI_Coordinates.pdf


Re. your credentials, I have often made the same statement concerning other people's and mine as well: that the credentials are not all that important. It's the merit of the argument itself which should be evaluated. Whenever anyone criticizes my use of your articles, I just ask them to try to refute your work on the basis of its content. The critic usually goes away at that point. (Conspiracy theorists react to math about the way a cat reacts to a cobra.) I've pointed out that a non-credentialed person can be quite capable of making an ironclad argument, while a few people with impressive credentials can come up with some really bad ones.

What credentials do they think are needed?  Why isn't being an engineer good enough?  An engineering curriculum includes all the required subjects.  Just because I made not have been taught specifically how to, for example, compute a trajectory to the moon, I won't be a very good engineer if I couldn't use basic dynamics to figure it out.

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Question about the AP8/AE8 radiation belt database
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2015, 07:31:01 PM »
Each blue line represents a magnetic field line.  A particular magnetic field line can be identified by the L coordinate, i.e. its radial distance from the center of Earth measured in the geomagnetic plane.  Once we've chosen a particular magnetic field line, we can move along that magnetic field line by either looping around toward the north magnetic pole or looping around toward the south magnetic pole.  As we move away from the magnetic equator, the strength of the magnetic field line weakens.  We can there define our location along the magnetic field line by comparing the strength of the line at the location to the strength of the line at the equator.  This is expressed as the ratio B/Bo, where B is the strength at our particular location and Bo is the strength at the equator.

For example, let's say our coordinates are L = 2 and B/Bo = 0.5.  To find our position we first move 2 Earth radii out from the center of Earth at the geomagnetic equator.  We then select the magnetic field line located at the position.  We now move along that particular field line until its strength is reduced to 1/2 what it was as the equator.  We are now at the location defined by the coordinates L = 2 and B/Bo = 0.5.

It looks like I screwed up the above explanation.  That's what I get for writing from memory.  Everything I said is essentially correct except for one significant mistake:  as we move away from the magnetic equator, the strength of the magnetic field line increases.  Therefore the value of the B/Bo coordinates are ≥1 rather than ≤1.