Author Topic: Heiwa's "challenge"  (Read 30409 times)

Offline frenat

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2015, 05:23:03 PM »
That would require anybody to actually think his challenge is real.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2015, 07:14:04 PM »
I'm surprised that no one here has a flesh-eating lawyer friend, who could have filed a lawsuit against Björkman for fraud, failure to pay, or any one of a few more civil charges.

A plaintiff would be hard pressed to show actionable fraud.

If a plaintiff said he believed, after all that discussion, that Björkman really had a million euros, and upon that belief consented to enter a contest in which it was clearly stated that Björkman's sole judgment would constitute the criteria for a payout of that million euros, then that speaks rather poorly for the plaintiff's judgment.  Reliance on the promise must be reasonable, which means the promise itself has to be at least plausible on its face.

Most importantly, the plaintiff has to show actual harm from the defendant's fraud that leaves him worse off than he was before.  Björkman's failure to pay me a handsome sum doesn't leave me worse off.  Assuming the offer were credible and I had met the conditions, and I had then -- for example -- incurred some financial liability that I had planned to pay off with the proceeds of his offer, then I would have a cause of action.  There has to be a "taking" aspect in order for fraud to arise.
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Offline Ishkabibble

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2015, 07:50:20 PM »
I'm surprised that no one here has a flesh-eating lawyer friend, who could have filed a lawsuit against Björkman for fraud, failure to pay, or any one of a few more civil charges.

A plaintiff would be hard pressed to show actionable fraud.

If a plaintiff said he believed, after all that discussion, that Björkman really had a million euros, and upon that belief consented to enter a contest in which it was clearly stated that Björkman's sole judgment would constitute the criteria for a payout of that million euros, then that speaks rather poorly for the plaintiff's judgment.  Reliance on the promise must be reasonable, which means the promise itself has to be at least plausible on its face.

Most importantly, the plaintiff has to show actual harm from the defendant's fraud that leaves him worse off than he was before.  Björkman's failure to pay me a handsome sum doesn't leave me worse off.  Assuming the offer were credible and I had met the conditions, and I had then -- for example -- incurred some financial liability that I had planned to pay off with the proceeds of his offer, then I would have a cause of action.  There has to be a "taking" aspect in order for fraud to arise.

It pains me to disagree with someone who is so knowledgeable, but according to my lawyer friend, a plaintiff doesn't have to "believe" there was a reasonable offer made. There doesn't have to be a reasonable anything on the part of a plaintiff, just that the defendant made the claim repeatedly. A court only has look to see that an offer was made, that conditions were met and changed, and accurate responses provided. The offer being made, accurate responses being given, and the goalposts being moved are what's actionable. The fact that you weren't harmed by not being paid, is also irrelevant. You had standing, because the claim was made, you legitimately responded to it, and had your response ignored. Of course, the only people who legitimately have standing would be those who actually offered legitimate calculations. The promise doesn't have to be "reasonable" it just has to exist.

Remember, this is a society where someone sued a fast food joint and won because the coffee was too hot. A reasonable person would expect coffee to be hot. That was deemed irrelevant in the final case. The temperature of the coffee was the salient point.

The only way that you would have had to "show harm" is if you'd gone to France to collect. Since you didn't, and you presumably aren't suing in a French court, it wouldn't matter. If his attorney had objected with "but you didn't honestly believe that you could collect" your attorney could have responded with "irrelevant" and the court would almost certainly have had to agree.
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Offline Sus_pilot

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Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2015, 08:13:41 PM »
It's been a long, long time, but wasn't Ishkabibble's argument the same one made by the kid that sued Pepsi over not actually awarding him a Harrier as a prize?  Didn't Pepsi have to settle even though the prize itself was clearly ridiculous?

ETA:  turns out my memory is faulty.  PepsiCo was sued, but it was tossed by a judge and tossed again on appeal.  The crux was that it was clearly ridiculous for the company to offer an award for $700k when the value was in excess of $23 million. 

There's more to Judge Woods' opinion here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_v._Pepsico,_Inc.

So, now I'm a bit conflicted - is Heiwa's offer frivolous, as PepsiCo 's was, or would it be considered boa ride?  Also, right or wrong, the PesiCo case meets Jay's test to an extent  - the plaintiff did write a check for $700k to buy the face value of the reward points Pepsi said were needed to get the plane.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 08:23:07 PM by Sus_pilot »

Offline gillianren

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2015, 10:07:36 PM »
Remember, this is a society where someone sued a fast food joint and won because the coffee was too hot. A reasonable person would expect coffee to be hot. That was deemed irrelevant in the final case. The temperature of the coffee was the salient point.

That's in no small part because a reasonable person would not expect coffee to be hot enough to cause the level of burns she had.  If you've got a stronger stomach than I, you can see the pictures of the skin grafts.  Check out the documentary Hot Coffee to see how maligned that woman has been relative to her actual suit.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2015, 10:20:33 PM »
That's in no small part because a reasonable person would not expect coffee to be hot enough to cause the level of burns she had.

Correct.  We studied this case.  There's a lot about it that's not commonly reported.  It's often characterized cynically as a frivolous lawsuit, when in fact the plaintiff had a great deal of merit.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2015, 11:03:04 PM »
The crux was that it was clearly ridiculous for the company to offer an award for $700k when the value was in excess of $23 million.

Yes, that's the essence of reasonable reliance as typically constructed.  But it's a many splendored thing, especially from state to state. Without a detailed discussion with your lawyer friend I would have a hard time disputing him.  I can only speak with some understanding of Utah law, which construes fraud according to nine elements, of which elements 6 through 8 describe our doctrine of reasonable reliance.  An abbreviated construction of it resides in all our jury instructions that pertain to misrepresentation.

Element 6 requires the plaintiff to act reasonably and in ignorance of the falsity of the claim.  The half-dozen or so cases that shape our doctrine, as well as our federal circuit, require due diligence from the plaintiff if a reasonable person would find the offer suspicious on its face; the ignorance in that case can't be reckless or willful.  But our founding ruling is Jardine v. Brunswick (yes, the bowling people):

Quote
The one who complains of being injured by such a false representation cannot heedlessly accept as true whatever is told him, but has the duty of exercising such degree of care to protect his own interests as would be exercised by an ordinary, reasonable and prudent person under the circumstances; and if he fails to do so, is precluded from holding someone else to account for the consequences of his own neglect.

In the Pepsico case, in addition to the disparity of buy-in cost and the value of the prize, a reasonable person would also have questioned giving a military jet to a civilian.  This should have led the plaintiff to research the purported contract further before committing a substantial sum of money.  He had the duty to do so, at least in Utah.

In Heiwa's case, the amount of money offered and the relative obscurity of the claimant should have led a reasonable person to inquire further about the legitimacy of the offer.  And the record shows that his critics did indeed undertake such an inquiry, and that the results would be objectively unsatisfactory:  Heiwa offered no evidence that he was capable of producing such a sum.  The enforceability of the contract and other elements of its validity would also be subject.

Quote
So, now I'm a bit conflicted - is Heiwa's offer frivolous, as PepsiCo 's was, or would it be considered boa ride?

As my law teachers point out, that would be for a jury to decide.  But most of it would be moot for other reasons, since the award becomes payable only if the terms of the contract are met.  The terms (amended) say Heiwa is the sole judge of whether he has been proven wrong.  That precludes any sort of "natural meaning" argument.  His actions becomes fraud only if Heiwa agrees he has been proven wrong and then subsequently fails to pay.  If the terms are not accepted, or he doesn't agree he has been proven wrong, then no award is payable.

I can go into Utah case law for the other elements of fraud, but -- as I say -- it's probably moot.

Quote
...the plaintiff did write a check for $700k to buy the face value of the reward points Pepsi said were needed to get the plane.

That satisfies elements 7 and 8 under our law, which requires the plaintiff actually to have done something to demonstrate reliance upon the promise.  That may be what your lawyer friend means when he says belief is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 11:15:44 PM by JayUtah »
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Offline bknight

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2015, 11:19:26 PM »
You can't get blood out of a rock.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2015, 11:35:36 PM »
You can't get blood out of a rock.

[Utah law]

You wouldn't necessarily be entitled to blood.  Claims sounding in tort (fraud) entitle you only to damages, after which you could attempt to petition for disgorgement of the million euros.  But you'd fail.  That is, if you proved Heiwa defrauded you, you could recover only for the amount you lost, not the amount that was promised (Cardon v. Jean Brown Research).  Claims sounding in contract (breach) can recover for covenanted benefits, provided the contract is enforceable.  He would be liable for a million euros, but (at least in the U.S.) the common remedy is to declare bankruptcy and discharge the liability.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline bknight

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2015, 11:54:45 PM »
You can't get blood out of a rock.

[Utah law]

You wouldn't necessarily be entitled to blood.  Claims sounding in tort (fraud) entitle you only to damages, after which you could attempt to petition for disgorgement of the million euros.  But you'd fail.  That is, if you proved Heiwa defrauded you, you could recover only for the amount you lost, not the amount that was promised (Cardon v. Jean Brown Research).  Claims sounding in contract (breach) can recover for covenanted benefits, provided the contract is enforceable.  He would be liable for a million euros, but (at least in the U.S.) the common remedy is to declare bankruptcy and discharge the liability.
Precisely why you can't get blood out of a rock, even if he had he money.
Perhaps  I should change that to it would be easier to get blood  out of  a rock
Edit  changed my thought
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 11:59:45 PM by bknight »
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline Sus_pilot

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2015, 02:36:33 AM »
Actually, Jay, I was only remembering the Pepsi case (no pun intended).  I think it was bknight that spoke to a lawyer.

And for those wondering, a "boa ride" is iOS 9's translation of "bona fide".  Although (channeling Michael Weatherly here) "boa ride" might be a cool turn of phrase...

Offline raven

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2015, 03:24:49 AM »
What exactly was his 'challenge' again? I've clean forgotten. Of course,  Conspiracy theorists "challenges" tend to be like insurance sold by Daffy Duck: there's always one more baby zebra.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:28:35 AM by raven »

Offline bknight

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2015, 07:05:25 AM »
Actually, Jay, I was only remembering the Pepsi case (no pun intended).  I think it was bknight that spoke to a lawyer.

And for those wondering, a "boa ride" is iOS 9's translation of "bona fide".  Although (channeling Michael Weatherly here) "boa ride" might be a cool turn of phrase...
Not I, avoiding lawyers is a daily goal for me. :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline Ishkabibble

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2015, 09:22:24 AM »
Well, I guess everyone's an expert at everything here.

I can only go by what I've been told, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Sorry I brought it up.
You don't "believe" that the lunar landings happened. You either understand the science or you don't.

If the lessons of history teach us any one thing, it is that no one learns the lessons that history teaches...

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Heiwa's "challenge"
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2015, 09:44:32 AM »
Not I, avoiding lawyers is a daily goal for me. :)

Sadly not all of us can be so lucky.  But apologies all round to everyone to whom I've misattributed remarks.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams