ApolloHoax.net
Apollo Discussions => The Hoax Theory => Topic started by: mako88sb on August 08, 2015, 08:12:32 PM
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Somebody brought this up today:
"NOTHING outside of the suits could be heard... Ahem... EXCEPT on Apollo 16 where apparently sound defied the rules of science and you hear them hammering with tools and such. At one point, Astronaut Charlie Duke tosses a cable 15 feet away from him, it hits the LM and YOU HEAR IT!!! The LM was not mic'd, in fact it was powered down. So HOW, did this outside sound travel through zero atmosphere and was heard?"
I thought I remembered some discussion here about why you would hear the hammering sounds. I can't seem to find it now. Something with vibrations being transmitted through the hammer to the astronaut I believe? Not sure about the cable hitting the LM and being heard? I know they had a video camera inside the LM during the landing and I'm assuming it was kept on while Young and Duke were on their eva's? I haven't had a chance to find that particular moment on the eva videos so not even sure if it really happened.
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Ask them to provide the video in question. That will help narrow it down, hopefully.
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I have seen some of these videos.
AS15 and
There was another that I can't find that had a piece of equipment hitting the LM and making a sound, but I can't locate it.
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LM was mic'ed; it had a cabin recorder. It was not "powered down" in the least; it was the relay for the suit circuit. The suits used a sort of daisy-chained VHF circuit which was picked up by the VHF antennas on the LM and upconverted to the S-band to Earth. Outside the range of the LM, the LRV played the role of VHF-USB relay.
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LM was mic'ed; it had a cabin recorder. It was not "powered down" in the least; it was the relay for the suit circuit. The suits used a sort of daisy-chained VHF circuit which was picked up by the VHF antennas on the LM and upconverted to the S-band to Earth. Outside the range of the LM, the LRV played the role of VHF-USB relay.
Thanks Jay. I suspected something along those lines but it's great to hear specific details. Hope you don't mind if I quote you for my response. I don't think the guy actually believes the landings were hoaxed . Just curious about something he thought odd.
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LM was mic'ed; it had a cabin recorder. It was not "powered down" in the least; it was the relay for the suit circuit. The suits used a sort of daisy-chained VHF circuit which was picked up by the VHF antennas on the LM and upconverted to the S-band to Earth. Outside the range of the LM, the LRV played the role of VHF-USB relay.
I rather suspected the sound of Jim Irwin throwing something against the LM and making a sound, picking up vibrations in skin in an open mike on board.
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LM was mic'ed; it had a cabin recorder. It was not "powered down" in the least; it was the relay for the suit circuit. The suits used a sort of daisy-chained VHF circuit which was picked up by the VHF antennas on the LM and upconverted to the S-band to Earth. Outside the range of the LM, the LRV played the role of VHF-USB relay.
I don't think this is fully correct. While the LM did act as a relay (unless the LRV performed that function) I don't think there were any microphones other than those on the astronauts.
Electronics are sometimes sensitive to mechanical vibration, a phenomenon naturally known as "microphonics" that is especially common with vacuum tubes used as low-level audio amplifiers, but I'll have to watch the video in question.
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OK, I've watched those two clips of the Apollo 15 core tube being hammered.
The sound is obviously traveling up his arm. It could easily have been conducted through the hammer to his hand, through the glove and then to the air inside the suit before reaching his microphone. It's never particularly loud or consistent.
The video that brushes off conduction doesn't seem to consider this possibility. It also shows an old Mr.Wizard-like demonstration of a bell in a bell jar, but note that the bell is hanging by very thin wires precisely to minimize sound conduction. Over the past couple of weeks I've seen similar demonstrations in two science museums (London Science Museum and Palais de la Découverte in Paris). In both cases some residual sound was still audible due to conduction through the mounting of the bell and/or the solenoid striking it.
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Oh, so many problems with this claim. I mean, good grief, even some conspiracy theorists claim it was filmed in a vacuum to try and account for evidence of such even they can not deny. Also, given that the astronauts have their gold visors down over 90% of the time, it would be the easiest thing in the world to dub in silence and a retake of the 'line' if something like this happened 'on set'. It's not like they have to worry about lipflap synching, and the sound quality of the mics is low.
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I didn't find the video, but here is a forum discussing what happened in the video. Jim Irwin threw "something" at the lander and a distinct noise was heard. I thought it was vibrations going into a microphone on board. Anyway here is the link. The producer of the video was filminco very possibly.
http://forum.moonzoo.org/index.php?topic=4199.15
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I just deleted a message I posted theorizing that the sound was that of the LCRU being acquired on the ground. The LCRU appears to be turned on sometime later than I thought. I'm still investigating.
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After reading all the way through the form I linked, I found the original video in the ALSJ
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15v.1205113.rm
It is has a real media format and I don't know anything about conversion to a YT, but here it is. Look around 1:45 for the thrown object.
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You can upload it as it is.
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Thanks, but I'll probably not do that with this video. That is unless we come to a conclusion as to what the noise is and how it is generated. Since the mission occurred then there must be an explanation for why/how the noise is generated.
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The only open microphones were in the spacesuits, so it has to be from one of the astronauts - his suit.
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Electronics are sometimes sensitive to mechanical vibration, a phenomenon naturally known as "microphonics" that is especially common with vacuum tubes used as low-level audio amplifiers, but I'll have to watch the video in question.
And not just from vacuum tubes. It could happen with solid-state as well, but less common.
Edit: I just noticed you basically said that. I need to wake up - it's early here.
And also, from Wiki:
Wiring and cables can also exhibit microphonics as charged conductors move around, and various materials can develop triboelectric ("static") charges that couple to the electronic circuits.
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I'll buy the microphonics explanation. The ambient cabin mic was deleted as part of the LM's weight reduction.
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Electronics are sometimes sensitive to mechanical vibration, a phenomenon naturally known as "microphonics" that is especially common with vacuum tubes used as low-level audio amplifiers, but I'll have to watch the video in question.
And not just from vacuum tubes. It could happen with solid-state as well, but less common.
Edit: I just noticed you basically said that. I need to wake up - it's early here.
And also, from Wiki:
Wiring and cables can also exhibit microphonics as charged conductors move around, and various materials can develop triboelectric ("static") charges that couple to the electronic circuits.
I'll buy the microphonics explanation. The ambient cabin mic was deleted as part of the LM's weight reduction.
I thought it might be vibration, but to anyone, what was it vibrating into, given there is no microphone in the LM?
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I haven't see the video, and I won't be able to until late tonight. It would depend on where on the LM the impact occurred. Most of the actual comm equipment was on the cold rails in the aft equipment bay. But that stuff is always heavily potted. I can imagine certain components that incorporated embedded dieletric layers, and were potted only insofar as their casings, might generate a single if vibrated. But without that, you're left with wiring harnesses to the antenna arrays and to the headset connectors in the cabin.
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I haven't see the video, and I won't be able to until late tonight. It would depend on where on the LM the impact occurred. Most of the actual comm equipment was on the cold rails in the aft equipment bay. But that stuff is always heavily potted. I can imagine certain components that incorporated embedded dieletric layers, and were potted only insofar as their casings, might generate a single if vibrated. But without that, you're left with wiring harnesses to the antenna arrays and to the headset connectors in the cabin.
I'll give you a Readers Digest, the impact isn't seen, just heard. But I can estimate the impact is towards the top of the LM. You'll see what I mean when you watch. Let us know what you think when you do see the clip.
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I doubt anything hit the LM. It's just one of the many little communication artifacts in the Apollo missions.
The astronauts' VOX-triggered microphones fed a long chain of communication channels starting with their backpack radios, the relays in the LM or LRV, the large ground stations (which handed off every 8 hours as the earth turned), a large network of satellite and submarine cables, the NASA network (based at Goddard, I believe), and so forth. Every one of these links, unlike today, was analog and capable of injecting its own interference. All were active even when the microphone VOX was closed.
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That was probably true, but it allows the HB's to have an anomaly at their disposal. I still wonder about it myself, even though I know the throw occurred and a noise followed shortly afterward.
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Seems the conservative explanation that this was a spurious and co-incidental sound.
Reminds me of when I'm mixing a live musical with 20-30 live body mics plus pit, and a director or someone will come back to me and say "You need to fix Tony's mic -- we heard a noise during his line."
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After reading all the way through the form I linked, I found the original video in the ALSJ
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15v.1205113.rm
It is has a real media format and I don't know anything about conversion to a YT, but here it is. Look around 1:45 for the thrown object.
The comment that it is a real media format may be misleading, from ALSJ RealVideo Clip:.
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in the clip, the sound seems to occur while the object is still moving.
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I don't get that impression, the object is off screen when the sounds occurs, so movement/hitting is not able to be determined.
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I still think it very unlikely that an astronaut would deliberately hit the LM.
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There are a lot of sound artifacts on the Apollo 16 lunar liftoff. It's like there is an atmosphere around the LEM.
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I still think it very unlikely that an astronaut would deliberately hit the LM.
I would agree with your thoughts, but have you looked at the video? The object leaves Irwin's hand and head towards the Falcon, whether by purpose or lack of dexterity with the lunar gloves.
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There are a lot of sound artifacts on the Apollo 16 lunar liftoff. It's like there is an atmosphere around the LEM.
"LEM"- noted.
There was an atmosphere IN the LM at liftoff, plus the rocket motor protruded into the cabin. I'd expect it to be anything but quiet!
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Does anybody have hard info on the sound leves in the cabin at lunar liftoff? I would not expect the engine to make much noise.
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It was louder than I expected. I read somewhere that the ascent motor pumped a lot of heat into the cabin too.
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Can't hear any of the engine in that, I'm afraid.
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Does anybody have hard info on the sound leves in the cabin at lunar liftoff? I would not expect the engine to make much noise.
Most of the noise a rocket motor makes is the exhaust hitting the air, which obviously is only pertinent to a launch from Earth. You would hear a certain amount of flow noise from the motor within the cabin, but probably not enough to make you raise your voice while talking. The crews didn't report particularly loud flow noises.
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Asked in another forum. Alan Bean said the ascent engine was inaudible in the cabin. Other has described it as a faint whisle or wind-type noise. The separation from the descent stage was audible, though.
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Can't hear any of the engine in that, I'm afraid.
I may be mistaken, but isn't it the high pitched snoise that sounds almost like wind or a jet whine? You can hear it over the background comms link static at 0:55 onwards
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The separation from the descent stage was audible, though.
Yes, there's a loud "clack" sound in the audio at ascent ignition on all the missions I've heard. I assume this is the separation pyros firing. There are quite a few of them; first the separation bolts and electrical deadfacing pyros are fired, and then after a short delay (15 ms) the guillotines are fired to cut interstage cables and supply pipes. I would expect all this to produce a single sound.
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It was louder than I expected. I read somewhere that the ascent motor pumped a lot of heat into the cabin too.
Heard the sound you wrote about. I don't think it's the engine - it keeps going up in pitch. I would expect the engine noise to be a constant. It could only fire at full throttle. Could it be an artefact of the transmission?
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Sound conduction through the suit. Or the alien puppet masters' farts.
I know which one I' pick.