ApolloHoax.net
Apollo Discussions => The Hoax Theory => Topic started by: mako88sb on August 30, 2015, 02:33:54 AM
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This has been mentioned a few times by the hoaxheads about the absurdity of using a clear plastic bag to protect the family photo Charlie left behind. Somehow this small issue nullify's all the scientific proof it seems. I was hoping to find some info about just what type of plastic bag it was. Something he grabbed out of the kitchen or was it provided by NASA? I realize Charlie probably had no expectation that the image would last forever considering the harsh environment. From what I've read, it doesn't sound like the max high temp of the moon's surface would be enough to melt the plastic. I have "Moonwalker" but it's stashed away in the attic for now. Anyway, I don't recall him mentioning anything about the bag. I vaguely remember something about an astronaut placing an item in a location that would not be exposed to direct sunlight but I can't remember who it was . I don't think it's Charlie though because he placed the photo close to his boot print. Somewhat of a silly issue but it be nice to shut them up about it.
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Oh man. The hoax believer crowd are really scraping the bottom of the barrel, aren't they? I would be certain that the photo has long since faded. However, for the short moments after Duke placed the photograph and bag on the surface and took the photo, nothing would have happened to it.
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The photo was placed close to the LM at the end of EVA-3. It might be possible to work out exactly where from rover tracks in photos of other mementos Charlie photographed at the same time.
Given the proximity to the LM, chances are it was blown miles away when the ascent module launched.
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I wonder if the writing on the back would still be legible, being mostly shielded from the sun. Assuming it landed photo side up. Conversely, if it landed image down . . .
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I'd be surprised if it wasn't a NASA plastic bag considering the efforts to keep the spacecraft clean of any and all dust particles, germs, flammables and whatnot.
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I've just looked in my copy of Moonwalker and he discusses taking and placing the photo but not (that I can find at least) the bag he put it in.
He also mentioned that Irwin did the same on Apollo 15, which I didn't know :)
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And from the oral history:
I took a picture of my family. Our kids were 5 and 7. And a little picture that had been taken in the backyard by one of the NASA guys, Ludy Benjamin, and we had that encased in Velcro (not Velcro) but—shrink-wrapped.
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He also mentioned that Irwin did the same on Apollo 15, which I didn't know :)
Wait a moment, this guy Irwin who was allegedly going to Bill Kaysing "to spill the beans" left a photo on the Moon? Too bad this information didn't come to Kaysing's or Blunder's attention.
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This has been mentioned a few times by the hoaxheads about the absurdity of using a clear plastic bag to protect the family photo Charlie left behind. Somehow this small issue nullify's all the scientific proof it seems.
Dwight hits the nail on the head, it really does stink of scraping the bottom of the barrel. I sort of agree, why would anyone leave it in a plastic bag to protect it, but then maybe it's just a natural thing to do given Earthbound experiences. Especially when leaving such a cherished article on another body. Maybe he just thought it would last a little longer. There's probably a simple explanation, only Charlie really has the answer, or possibly 12oh2alarm above.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't a NASA plastic bag considering the efforts to keep the spacecraft clean of any and all dust particles, germs, flammables and whatnot.
Maybe NASA was concerned that the photo could contaminate the craft or the astronauts so it was put in a plastic bag. Maybe putting it in plastic bag made it easier to handle in space gloves? Who knows? Do they realise how pathetic they have become? What was in those big rockets that they launched and the while world was watching? Yet they choose to find some nefarious meaning for a plastic bag. Some of them need to get off the interweb and move out of their mother's basement.
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Dwight hits the nail on the head, it really does stink of scraping the bottom of the barrel. I sort of agree, why would anyone leave it in a plastic bag to protect it, but then maybe it's just a natural thing to do given Earthbound experiences. Especially when leaving such a cherished article on another body. Maybe he just thought it would last a little longer. There's probably a simple explanation, only Charlie really has the answer, or possibly 12oh2alarm above.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't a NASA plastic bag considering the efforts to keep the spacecraft clean of any and all dust particles, germs, flammables and whatnot.
Maybe NASA was concerned that the photo could contaminate the craft or the astronauts so it was put in a plastic bag. Maybe putting it in plastic bag made it easier to handle in space gloves? Who knows? Do they realise how pathetic they have become? What was in those big rockets that they launched and the while world was watching? Yet they choose to find some nefarious meaning for a plastic bag. Some of them need to get off the interweb and move out of their mother's basement, get a job.
FTFY
I do agree with the principles that many are younger and didn't experience Apollo in real time. Given the technology of the past 10 years or so might give rise to the "they didn't have technology to travel to the moon".
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Here's what the guy actually had to say:
"ok, have you tried putting a photograph inside of a polythene bag, and put it in the oven at its highest temperature yet, for just a minute or less, do this and tell me what happens please. we can go through many of the tests if you like together if you like.
cheers"
So obviously the max temp of an oven is almost twice that of what you would get on the moon. I was trying to find when high heat resistant plastic bags were available but my searching skills are in the same league as Neil Bakers I must admit. From what I've found so far though, it sounds like most plastics are good past 120 C but some become unstable at 110 C. I'm not sure about the shrink wrap. In this image, it looks like the photo is just in a bag to me?
(http://i0.wp.com/www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/AS16-117-18840.jpg)
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..and there may well have been some impact from exposure to the sun.
Here's a better quality version that I've cropped:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/14sia8g.jpg)
Look on the ground to the right of the right hand edge - looks a little like where the photograph landed initially and then perhaps curled a little.
The person making the claim would also do well to look at all the other photographs in that magazine
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Some of them need to get off the interweb and move out of their mother's basement.
There are perfectly legitimate reasons for still living with one's parents into adulthood. Someone I know is living in his in-laws' basement right now, because he was recently fired. Other people I know take care of parents with serious health problems. The issue with these people is not that they live in their parents' basements. It's that they're willfully ignorant. You can do that just fine living on your own.
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"ok, have you tried putting a photograph inside of a polythene bag, and put it in the oven at its highest temperature yet, for just a minute or less, do this and tell me what happens please. we can go through many of the tests if you like together if you like.
cheers"
The old 'the Moon's surface is a searing hotplate' argument. They landed during the lunar dawn did they not? An oven also heats by convection, and is very good at it. In fact, anyone who has switched to a fan oven will know the effectiveness of forced current heating. I do, because I found it took about 40 minutes off the cooking time of a 3 lb chicken. There's no convective heating on the moon, so we cannot compare the situation to an oven.
That only leaves radiation and conduction. I assume that the back of the photograph is white, so it will reflect IR from the Moon's surface reasonably well. this leaves conduction. Two things (a) how good it the thermal contact between the regolith and bag? (b) regolith is a poor conductor of heat.
http://www.spaceanswers.com/space-exploration/how-did-lunar-astronauts-survive-the-extreme-temperatures-on-the-moon/
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There]'s no convective heating on the moon, so we cannot compare the situation to an oven.
But that's exactly what David Groves did to test the durability of film in space. And he has a PhD in physics, so you're wrong. ;D
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There are perfectly legitimate reasons for still living with one's parents into adulthood. Someone I know is living in his in-laws' basement right now, because he was recently fired. Other people I know take care of parents with serious health problems. The issue with these people is not that they live in their parents' basements. It's that they're willfully ignorant. You can do that just fine living on your own.
I feel slightly singled out by this reply. I have to admit. I was certainly not deriding anyone for living with their parents into adulthood, if that is indeed what you were inferring about me. I would like you to explain how and where I have even suggested that I have no compassion/understanding for those that live with parents for care reasons or personal reasons, if that is indeed what you were inferring. If it was a more general response to the phrase, then I'll sit with that and feel less singled out. However:
The word living invokes a slight subtlety into that figure of speech, namely individuals that live fairly solitary lives and spend inordinate amounts of time living in a basement in front of the internet.
I'm guessing that your friend does not live in their parents basement, but rather sleeps there and during the day is trying to gain a job and rebuild their life.
In fact I am acutely aware of the impact that caring for parents has on people, especially teenagers. I've worked with many teenagers and young adults that suffer with depression because they are parent carers, and will probably remain with their parents well into their 20s and 30s.
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There]'s no convective heating on the moon, so we cannot compare the situation to an oven.
But that's exactly what David Groves did to test the durability of film in space. And he has a PhD in physics, so you're wrong. ;D
Shoot I have been looking into the wrong direction, the photographs and plastic bags. Andrew Johnson in a RichPlanet.net video did the same trick.
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"ok, have you tried putting a photograph inside of a polythene bag, and put it in the oven at its highest temperature yet, for just a minute or less, do this and tell me what happens please. we can go through many of the tests if you like together if you like.
cheers"
The old 'the Moon's surface is a searing hotplate' argument. They landed during the lunar dawn did they not? An oven also heats by convection, and is very good at it. In fact, anyone who has switched to a fan oven will know the effectiveness of forced current heating. I do, because I found it took about 40 minutes of the cooking time of a 3 lb chicken. There's no convective heating on the moon, so we cannot compare the situation to an oven.
That only leaves radiation and conduction. I assume that the back of the photograph is white, so it will reflect IR from the Moon's surface reasonably well. this leaves conduction. Two things (a) how good it the thermal contact between the regolith and bag? (b) regolith is a poor conductor of heat.
http://www.spaceanswers.com/space-exploration/how-did-lunar-astronauts-survive-the-extreme-temperatures-on-the-moon/
Yes, I was going to point out the temperature when eva-3 finished was not close to the max temp possible but this guy would probably go on about how Charlie would know that temp would be reached in a few days so why trust a family photo to a plastic bag.
I know when I was in air cadets back in the early 70's, we had these military ration packs during some of our camping excursions that included plastic bags that you added boiling hot water to some of the meals and I found an article that mentions slow cooking of food with heat safe bags started in 1974. I think just pointing out that some plastic can resist higher temps then the 120 C max of the moon plus the conduction explanation you mention should hopefully do it.
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Yes, I was going to point out the temperature when eva-3 finished was not close to the max temp possible but this guy would probably go on about how Charlie would know that temp would be reached in a few days so why trust a family photo to a plastic bag.
The man has just journeyed 250 000 miles to be one of 12 people to walk on the surface of the Moon. He's got a photo from the Moon showing three human beings that he would probably die protecting. I don't think that he's going to be bothered about it burning up on the Moon's surface (if that is what it did). Let's face it, does the fate of the photo really matter in this situation? He's never going to see it again, he's not going to be able to go back and get it. He knew that when he made the conscious decision to leave it on the Lunar surface. In Charlie's mind is the act that he took a memento of something that he cherished (his off spring and wife) and left it on the Moon, and has evidence that he did that.
Does the guy actually understand the act embodied in the photo of the photo. I really don't see his beef. Try the line I have tried here with him, and if he does not understand then he really should get out of the basement in which he lives.
As an aside, others might be able to save me some research. Were the astronauts allowed to take personal items, and if so what were they limited to in terms of mass and objects? Did Buzz sneak the small amount of wine onto Apollo 11?
ETA: And does the CT know the circumstances behind the photo left on the Moon's photo. Who knows, maybe Charlie had it specially taken for the mission and his family agreed that it could be left behind. The picture was taken by a 'NASA guy' was it taken on a film that NASA bought? In that case NASA officially owned it and might have suggested to Charlie that he leave it, all part of the PR and the embodiment of the American dream with his family, you know, motherhood and apple pie. There are so many human factors going on here that the guy really is scraping the barrel to make anything from this.
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But that's exactly what David Groves did to test the durability of film in space. And he has a PhD in physics, so you're wrong. ;D
Ah well, I guess I defer to Dr Groves and his PhD in physics... but my PhD in physics tells me different, so which of the two PhDs is correct? ;) is there a Schrodinger thought experiment going on here. Both the Apollogist and CT are correct, but we don't know which one until we look inside the box.
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But that's exactly what David Groves did to test the durability of film in space. And he has a PhD in physics, so you're wrong. ;D
Ah well, I guess I defer to Dr Groves and his PhD in physics... but my PhD in physics tells me different, so which of the two PhDs is correct? ;) is there a Schrodinger thought experiment going on here. Both the Apollogist and CT are correct, but we don't know which one until we look inside the box.
I think you may be more correct his degrees are:
PhD - BSc (Hons) Class I/Applied Physics.
PhD in Holographic Computer Measurement.
http://www.moontruth.org/activists/DrDavidGroves/index.htm
But IMO he did not do well in Applied Physics as his demonstration of the film in the microwave or in the oven show.
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Yes, I was going to point out the temperature when eva-3 finished was not close to the max temp possible but this guy would probably go on about how Charlie would know that temp would be reached in a few days so why trust a family photo to a plastic bag.
The man has just journeyed 250 000 miles to be one of 12 people to walk on the surface of the Moon. He's got a photo from the Moon showing three human beings that he would probably die protecting. I don't think that he's going to be bothered about it burning up on the Moon's surface (if that is what it did). Let's face it, does the fate of the photo really matter in this situation? He's never going to see it again, he's not going to be able to go back and get it. He knew that when he made the conscious decision to leave it on the Lunar surface. In Charlie's mind is the act that he took a memento of something that he cherished (his off spring and wife) and left it on the Moon, and has evidence that he did that.
Does the guy actually understand the act embodied in the photo of the photo. I really don't see his beef. Try the line I have tried here with him, and if he does not understand then he really should get out of the basement in which he lives.
As an aside, others might be able to save me some research. Were the astronauts allowed to take personal items, and if so what were they limited to in terms of mass and objects? Did Buzz sneak the small amount of wine onto Apollo 11?
Well, it think the people complaining about this issue seem to think that the guys leaving memento's such as these, Jim Irwin & Charlie Duke with the family pictures, expected them to last a fairly long time. Like I said, I remember reading about one astronaut looking for a spot that wouldn't receive direct sunlight so I'm assuming it was Irwin. If so, then it does look like he hoped for it to last for quite awhile. That Charlie didn't bother to worry about direct sunlight confirms what you say about the action of leaving it meaning more then how long it will last. I know I never thought to question his motives but seems like some people will go to any lengths when it comes to supposed hoaxes.
As for PPKs, this article should help:
http://spaceflownartifacts.com/flown_ppks.html
From what I've read, Aldrin got approval for the wine but was told to do the ceremony in private since NASA did get a fair bit of backlash from the Apollo 8 reading of Genesis.
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..and there may well have been some impact from exposure to the sun.
Here's a better quality version that I've cropped:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/14sia8g.jpg)
Look on the ground to the right of the right hand edge - looks a little like where the photograph landed initially and then perhaps curled a little.
The person making the claim would also do well to look at all the other photographs in that magazine
Thanks! I missed your post somehow. It does look like it's been affected already.
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Perhaps he put the photo in the bag to stop it getting creased, marked or stained on the journey and just didn't see the point of taking it out when he arrived. I know I do the same when I'm carrying documents or photos from one place to another. I doubt Duke expected the picture to survive. If he wanted that, he could have just put a rock on top of it.
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He also mentioned that Irwin did the same on Apollo 15, which I didn't know :)
Wait a moment, this guy Irwin who was allegedly going to Bill Kaysing "to spill the beans" left a photo on the Moon? Too bad this information didn't come to Kaysing's or Blunder's attention.
Something else about Jim Irwin mentioned in his book related to the final jettisoning of the lunar module ascent stage. As you probably know, the final scientific bit of information that the lunar module ascent stages provided was to have them impact the moon so that their known mass and velocity could be used to calibrate the seismic detectors left behind. That went as planned but as the crew was preparing for the journey home, Dave Scott and Jim Irwin realized that in the rush to meet the LM separation from the CM at the right time, they had each assumed that their PPk's had been transferred by the other guy but sadly they had been missed. Aside from family mementos that were now in a man-made crater on the moon, Jim Irwin's had his best friends wedding ring inside as well. Imagine trying to explain to your best buddy about why he needs to get a new wedding ring.
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As an aside, others might be able to save me some research. Were the astronauts allowed to take personal items, and if so what were they limited to in terms of mass and objects? Did Buzz sneak the small amount of wine onto Apollo 11?
They all had a small allowance for personal items, hence Buzz's bread and wine, the photograph and a golf club (head only). NASA did not consider the astronauts to be robots, but men, with all the human needs pertaining thereto.
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If the photo stayed in that position when the LM left (which is questionable) it wouldn't exchange much if any heat with the lunar surface since it's facing up. But to know how hot it got, we'd have to know the infrared properties of the plastic enclosing it -- was it opaque at longwave IR? If so, then it might get very hot due to a greenhouse effect. If the plastic was clear at longwave IR, then it would probably be cooler than the lunar surface because of the picture's higher average albedo.
Also, whether the plastic transmits UV would be very important too.
But we can be sure that it got quite cold at night.
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"ok, have you tried putting a photograph inside of a polythene bag, and put it in the oven at its highest temperature yet, for just a minute or less, do this and tell me what happens please. we can go through many of the tests if you like together if you like.
cheers"
The old 'the Moon's surface is a searing hotplate' argument. They landed during the lunar dawn did they not? An oven also heats by convection, and is very good at it. In fact, anyone who has switched to a fan oven will know the effectiveness of forced current heating. I do, because I found it took about 40 minutes of the cooking time of a 3 lb chicken. There's no convective heating on the moon, so we cannot compare the situation to an oven.
That only leaves radiation and conduction. I assume that the back of the photograph is white, so it will reflect IR from the Moon's surface reasonably well. this leaves conduction. Two things (a) how good it the thermal contact between the regolith and bag? (b) regolith is a poor conductor of heat.
http://www.spaceanswers.com/space-exploration/how-did-lunar-astronauts-survive-the-extreme-temperatures-on-the-moon/
Yes, I was going to point out the temperature when eva-3 finished was not close to the max temp possible but this guy would probably go on about how Charlie would know that temp would be reached in a few days so why trust a family photo to a plastic bag.
I know when I was in air cadets back in the early 70's, we had these military ration packs during some of our camping excursions that included plastic bags that you added boiling hot water to some of the meals and I found an article that mentions slow cooking of food with heat safe bags started in 1974. I think just pointing out that some plastic can resist higher temps then the 120 C max of the moon plus the conduction explanation you mention should hopefully do it.
Wait...you brought LURPS to the field? Intentionally?
I only had to depend on them once; when I was out at "Fort Wentwrong" in Alaska doing what they charitably called Winter Training. So basically you cut open this thick plastic bag full of cold, dry something-or-other, poured in hot water, waited twenty minutes...and proceeded to eat lukewarm, still dry, something-or-other.
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I feel slightly singled out by this reply. I have to admit. I was certainly not deriding anyone for living with their parents into adulthood, if that is indeed what you were inferring about me. I would like you to explain how and where I have even suggested that I have no compassion/understanding for those that live with parents for care reasons or personal reasons, if that is indeed what you were inferring. If it was a more general response to the phrase, then I'll sit with that and feel less singled out. However:
It was a more general response; I've started getting really irritated by the idea that my various friends who reside with their parents are made pathetic by that simple act. My younger sister, who actually moved to another state to keep living with my mother? That's one thing. She's lived less than a year of her life under a different roof than my mother, and there's no real reason for it. She just doesn't seem to want to grow up. But a lot of people live with their parents for legitimate reasons and need to stop being shamed by society for it.
The word living invokes a slight subtlety into that figure of speech, namely individuals that live fairly solitary lives and spend inordinate amounts of time living in a basement in front of the internet.
I'm guessing that your friend does not live in their parents basement, but rather sleeps there and during the day is trying to gain a job and rebuild their life.
Really? Because I tell people that I live with my boyfriend. Before, I've told people that I lived with roommates. To me, "I live with [person]" says absolutely nothing about what that life entails, just a mere fact of residence. As it happens, my acquaintance certainly does live in his in-laws' basement by any reasonable standards. That's where he resides. That's where he keeps his stuff. That's where he takes care of his own child and spends time with his wife. Heck, because he's a freelance writer, that's even where he works. Now, to be fair, I've never asked Nathan what he thinks about conspiracism. However, from what I've read, he looks at it as something more to make jokes about. And it's not just any loser who lives in his in-laws' basement that makes the front page of the Today website and the Oxford dictionaries (for coining the phrase "manic pixie dream girl") in the same month!
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Wait...you brought LERPS to the field? Intentionally?
I only had to depend on them once; when I was out at "Fort Wentwrong" in Alaska doing what they charitably called Winter Training. So basically you cut open this thick plastic bag full of cold, dry something-or-other, poured in hot water, waited twenty minutes...and proceeded to eat lukewarm, still dry, something-or-other.
FTFY
Gawk, don't use that term, it brought back memories that should be forever forgotten. I've been told the newer models have better taste. But then you should have tried the Korean War leftovers.
EDIT correcting meal names
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..and there may well have been some impact from exposure to the sun.
Here's a better quality version that I've cropped:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/14sia8g.jpg)
Look on the ground to the right of the right hand edge - looks a little like where the photograph landed initially and then perhaps curled a little.
The person making the claim would also do well to look at all the other photographs in that magazine
Thanks! I missed your post somehow. It does look like it's been affected already.
That effect could simply have been from sitting squashed in a pocket in Duke's spacesuit for a few hours before he hauled it out.
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Wait...you brought LERPS to the field? Intentionally?
I only had to depend on them once; when I was out at "Fort Wentwrong" in Alaska doing what they charitably called Winter Training. So basically you cut open this thick plastic bag full of cold, dry something-or-other, poured in hot water, waited twenty minutes...and proceeded to eat lukewarm, still dry, something-or-other.
FTFY
Gawk, don't use that term, it brought back memories that should be forever forgotten. I've been told the newer models have better taste. But then you should have tried the Korean War leftovers.
EDIT correcting meal names
Being Canadian, prior to 1980 the proper name was Individual Ration Pack(IRP) now changed to Individual Meal Pack(IMP). As for the quality and taste, I honestly thought they were pretty good for the most part. Never did any kind of winter training though thank god. lol. I did have a bad experience on one hiking trip we did. Having supper with only a small campfire for light, I opened a can of corned beef hash and dug into it very hungrily. Yeck! Damned thing was spoiled along with my appetite for the rest of the night. We had been warned to check the contents visually or by smell before eating but my hunger got the better of me.
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Being Canadian, prior to 1980 the proper name was Individual Ration Pack(IRP) now changed to Individual Meal Pack(IMP). As for the quality and taste, I honestly thought they were pretty good for the most part. Never did any kind of winter training though thank god. lol. I did have a bad experience on one hiking trip we did. Having supper with only a small campfire for light, I opened a can of corned beef hash and dug into it very hungrily. Yeck! Damned thing was spoiled along with my appetite for the rest of the night. We had been warned to check the contents visually or by smell before eating but my hunger got the better of me.
Mine were in the early 70's, I can't remember the name before LERP which were much better than predecessors.
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..and there may well have been some impact from exposure to the sun.
Here's a better quality version that I've cropped:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/14sia8g.jpg)
Look on the ground to the right of the right hand edge - looks a little like where the photograph landed initially and then perhaps curled a little.
The person making the claim would also do well to look at all the other photographs in that magazine
Thanks! I missed your post somehow. It does look like it's been affected already.
That effect could simply have been from sitting squashed in a pocket in Duke's spacesuit for a few hours before he hauled it out.
Indeed - the mark could just be where the already distorted photo hit the ground, but some curling from heat (from whatever source) could conceivably be an explanation.
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I've posted a couple responses to this guy with some points I think positively prove the landings happened and I haven't heard back from him since. One of those people who claim he used to believe in them and really wishes he could but the evidence against it is too overwhelming. Anyway, thanks for the help.
One of the strangest claims I can recall is someone pointing out that the Comet airplane had it's windows redesigned after it was proven that the original shape proved to be a factor in some of the crashes it experienced. Since the LM didn't have round or elliptical windows, that was all the proof he needed that the missions were faked. I explained to him that the LM wouldn't go through anywhere near as many pressurization/depressurization cycles as an airplane. I also showed him drawings of the support structure around the LM's windows compared to the typical airplane but of course it was all irrelevant to him. The fact that one of the windows blew out during a LM test and the cause was never found over-ruled everything else as far as he was concerned.
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I've posted a couple responses to this guy with some points I think positively prove the landings happened and I haven't heard back from him since. One of those people who claim he used to believe in them and really wishes he could but the evidence against it is too overwhelming. Anyway, thanks for the help.
One of the strangest claims I can recall is someone pointing out that the Comet airplane had it's windows redesigned after it was proven that the original shape proved to be a factor in some of the crashes it experienced. Since the LM didn't have round or elliptical windows, that was all the proof he needed that the missions were faked. I explained to him that the LM wouldn't go through anywhere near as many pressurization/depressurization cycles as an airplane. I also showed him drawings of the support structure around the LM's windows compared to the typical airplane but of course it was all irrelevant to him. The fact that one of the windows blew out during a LM test and the cause was never found over-ruled everything else as far as he was concerned.
It is amazing what the HB's will conjure up to "prove" the landings didn't occur. Radiation is the biggest hurdle in my experience although one told me he was a retired engineer and could prove mathematically the missions were fake. I told him that I had evidence outside NASA, thanks to Bob B. that they occurred. Nothing from him since then.
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I've posted a couple responses to this guy with some points I think positively prove the landings happened and I haven't heard back from him since. One of those people who claim he used to believe in them and really wishes he could but the evidence against it is too overwhelming. Anyway, thanks for the help.
One of the strangest claims I can recall is someone pointing out that the Comet airplane had it's windows redesigned after it was proven that the original shape proved to be a factor in some of the crashes it experienced. Since the LM didn't have round or elliptical windows, that was all the proof he needed that the missions were faked. I explained to him that the LM wouldn't go through anywhere near as many pressurization/depressurization cycles as an airplane. I also showed him drawings of the support structure around the LM's windows compared to the typical airplane but of course it was all irrelevant to him. The fact that one of the windows blew out during a LM test and the cause was never found over-ruled everything else as far as he was concerned.
IIRC correctly they did have a window problem with the LM in one of the vaccum chamber tests, one they never recreated or ever found a conclusive reason for happening. Such was the space race, and in particular the race for the Moon. Of course IIRC that was the window itself, not a structural failure of the support structure as in the case of the Comet. So the HBs using that is a case of comparing apples and oranges times 2.
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but has anyone ever attempted to contact Charlie Duke to ask him what kind of plastic bag the photo was in?
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but has anyone ever attempted to contact Charlie Duke to ask him what kind of plastic bag the photo was in?
I attempted to contact Buzz Aldrin concerning a video that was posted on YouTube and have yet to receive a response. I don't think they like being hounded by the public, even if it is in a reasonable question from a non-BB type individual.
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Why is the picture of a model cargo ship?
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Why is the picture of a model cargo ship?
Are we looking at the same picture?
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but has anyone ever attempted to contact Charlie Duke to ask him what kind of plastic bag the photo was in?
I attempted to contact Buzz Aldrin concerning a video that was posted on YouTube and have yet to receive a response. I don't think they like being hounded by the public, even if it is in a reasonable question from a non-BB type individual.
I presumed that there may be some members of the forum here who have connections to the space program, and might have a back channel.
It's not unreasonable, as I once worked for a startup aerospace company, and we had a shuttle astronaut on our board, whom I met and conversed with several times. Nice fellow.
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Why is the picture of a model cargo ship?
All day yesterday the cropped image was that of a ship. Today it's gone back to the Duke family.
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Why is the picture of a model cargo ship?
All day yesterday the cropped image was that of a ship. Today it's gone back to the Duke family.
What have you been smoking? :)
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Never smoked anything.
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Never smoked anything.
Aaah - the 'Didn't inhale' defence ;)
There's a poster on the 'Space Hipsters' facebook group that reports Duke himself saying that he saw the photo start to shrink, but didn't have time to see what had eventually happened to it. This was at an Astronaut Scholarship Foundation event.
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Never smoked anything.
Aaah - the 'Didn't inhale' defence ;)
There's a poster on the 'Space Hipsters' facebook group that reports Duke himself saying that he saw the photo start to shrink, but didn't have time to see what had eventually happened to it. This was at an Astronaut Scholarship Foundation event.
Maybe Irwin's photo fared better since he put it in a shadowed area.
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Never smoked anything.
Aaah - the 'Didn't inhale' defence ;)
Not even tobacco. Not once. Disgusting, dangerous, unhealthy loathsome addiction that carries the death penalty.
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but has anyone ever attempted to contact Charlie Duke to ask him what kind of plastic bag the photo was in?
A few minutes after I posted this, I went to Charlie Duke's website, found a "contact" link, and sent him the following message:
Dear General Duke:
I'm writing to ask a rather mundane question, and one I hope hasn't been asked and answered so many times that you are tired of it by now, but do you recall the type of plastic bag that encased the photo of you and your family that you left on the lunar surface during EVA-3 at Descartes?
Was it something that the Pad Crew did for you? Did you just pick up a plastic bag somewhere and do it yourself? Was it any special type of plastic that someone at NASA selected, or was it just something to meet the "clean" requirements?
The reason I'm asking is, I am a participant on a message board that has been discussing the properties of certain types of plastics. There is some speculation about how long it took before degradation of the plastic and the photograph began to be visually noticeable, and that sort of thing. The fact is, since none of us know what specific kind of plastic it was, it is nothing but speculation. Adding to that the fact that since none of us have ever gone to space, and you have walked on the moon, you have first-hand knowledge that we don't. So I thought I'd take a chance and ask you directly.
The photo of your family on the moon has been a topic of discussion recently, and I don't think it has ever occurred to anyone (until now) to ask you directly what kind of plastic bag it was.
Cordially,
I just received this response, ten minutes ago:
Dear ,
I thought I'd been asked every question imaginable about that photo, but you asked one I've never gotten before. I just don't know the type of plastic that was used. The guys in crew systems division packaged it for me. I can say this: when I dropped the photo, the moon's surface temperature was about 230F. The plastic bag started curling up within a few minutes. Hope this helps.
Thanks for writing!
Charlie Duke
So, I guess we'll never really know.
Unless we can contact someone in Crew Systems or the History office and ask them what the most likely type of plastic bag would have been used for this purpose.
I may just try that. I do have some former colleagues who worked for NASA, and some who still have some contacts there. Worth a try, I think.
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but has anyone ever attempted to contact Charlie Duke to ask him what kind of plastic bag the photo was in?
A few minutes after I posted this, I went to Charlie Duke's website, found a "contact" link, and sent him the following message:
Dear General Duke:
I'm writing to ask a rather mundane question, and one I hope hasn't been asked and answered so many times that you are tired of it by now, but do you recall the type of plastic bag that encased the photo of you and your family that you left on the lunar surface during EVA-3 at Descartes?
Was it something that the Pad Crew did for you? Did you just pick up a plastic bag somewhere and do it yourself? Was it any special type of plastic that someone at NASA selected, or was it just something to meet the "clean" requirements?
The reason I'm asking is, I am a participant on a message board that has been discussing the properties of certain types of plastics. There is some speculation about how long it took before degradation of the plastic and the photograph began to be visually noticeable, and that sort of thing. The fact is, since none of us know what specific kind of plastic it was, it is nothing but speculation. Adding to that the fact that since none of us have ever gone to space, and you have walked on the moon, you have first-hand knowledge that we don't. So I thought I'd take a chance and ask you directly.
The photo of your family on the moon has been a topic of discussion recently, and I don't think it has ever occurred to anyone (until now) to ask you directly what kind of plastic bag it was.
Cordially,
I just received this response, ten minutes ago:
Dear ,
I thought I'd been asked every question imaginable about that photo, but you asked one I've never gotten before. I just don't know the type of plastic that was used. The guys in crew systems division packaged it for me. I can say this: when I dropped the photo, the moon's surface temperature was about 230F. The plastic bag started curling up within a few minutes. Hope this helps.
Thanks for writing!
Charlie Duke
So, I guess we'll never really know.
Unless we can contact someone in Crew Systems or the History office and ask them what the most likely type of plastic bag would have been used for this purpose.
I may just try that. I do have some former colleagues who worked for NASA, and some who still have some contacts there. Worth a try, I think.
that makes sense since it appears to be "crinkled" on the edges.
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Well, we can rule out Kapton (polyimide). It's orange, not clear, and it is famously heat tolerant (to +400C). PTFE (Teflon) melts at 327C. Also probably not Mylar (m.p. 250-260C) or polystyrene (mp almost as high). The lowest melting point for a common plastic that I can find is polyethylene at 115-135C.
The bag looks like polyethylene but I wonder because it's flammable and Apollo had some famously strict post-Apollo-1 rules about that.
But even polyethylene seems unlikely to melt at 230F, and I also think Duke's estimate is too high. It's certainly known to get that hot at local noon, but he and Young were long gone by then. It could already have been that hot if the surface sloped to the east so that it was normal to the sun at that time, but it doesn't look that way to me.
My take is that the curling was caused by the photo, not the bag. Photographic paper is notorious for curling due to contraction of the emulsion on the picture side, usually by drying. And the moon certainly is dry.
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So, I guess we'll never really know.
Still, you went to the source and got an answer. Kudos to you!
If Crew Systems packaged it, then my bet is on Teflon.
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The bag looks like polyethylene
Teflon looks a lot like polyethylene. And sample bags made of polyethylene typically have a quarter-inch seam around the edges, much as we see in the in situ photo.
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Wow! This is what makes coming to this board all worthwhile! Ishkabibble - outstanding work!
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Thanks for taking the time to contact Charlie Duke about it Ishkabibble. I didn't think he used a bag from somewhere other then NASA but there was always the possibility he had so it's good to know that's dealt with. Hopefully one of your former colleagues can bring some closure to this topic.
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It's going to be a sad day when the last Apollo astronaut passes into the undiscovered country and a human who knows what it's like to walk or orbit the moon will no longer be still with us.
I'm glad we can contact these people while we still can.
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It's going to be a sad day when the last Apollo astronaut passes into the undiscovered country and a human who knows what it's like to walk or orbit the moon will no longer be still with us.
I'm glad we can contact these people while we still can.
Amen.
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I am so very glad I interviewed and spoke with Stan Lebar extensively prior to his utimely passing. Despite what that idiot Adrian would have people think, we discussed _EVERY_ aspect of the Westinghouse Space TV camera development. I am thankful that I was able to have that information published so that his legacy lives on. I shudder to think how all that information would have been lost forever had I not started my work when I did. I mean, you can obviously read the memos and reports, but you don't get the personal touches and recollections which make the work all the more astounding.
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I think the outcome of thread should serve as a salutary lesson to HBs and Apollo supporters alike.
Too often the response to this question (not necessarily here) is an instant "don't be stupid...", mainly because it has originated from an HB perspective.
What neither stance tends to acknowledge is that the photograph represents a snapshot of exactly what the HB proposes ought to be happening: the photograph is responding to the thermal conditions of its environment, and close examination of the image and the eye-witness testimony of the photographer supports that view. It has to be recognised that the photograph is not the start and end point of the process it underwent on the surface, just a very short glimpse of it.
Just as the 'Just Asking Questions' stance usually masks a predisposition to an answer someone wants to hear, the dishing out of stock responses to those questions has to actually give a correct answer properly thought through, not simply a contrarian one.
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I'm not going to give up on this until I either get a specific, definitive answer, or someone tells me that there's nothing existing to indicate precisely what it was.
I did talk to a former colleague of mine who mentioned to me that someone had asked Duke about the photo (not the bag) and Duke's response was "a few minutes after he'd dropped the photo, he looked back and it was already browning and curling up." That leads me to believe that ka9q's opinion that it was the photo and not the bag has greater credence than any of the other speculation we've entertained so far. I say "speculation" simply because I have not yet found out any specifics, not as a slight against the fine members of this forum.
I have inquiries out to two other colleagues of mine, both connected to NASA, and one other who had a meeting on our behalf at the HQ library in Washington, DC. As a side note, I have two models on display there, that were used in that meeting. Maybe someone there can do a bit of digging on our behalf, and locate the information. As well documented as Apollo was, someone somewhere had to make a note of what the specifications were of that damn bag. And I'm going to find them.
I have two other avenues of inquiry to undertake after I find out what this one's results are.
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Teflon looks a lot like polyethylene. And sample bags made of polyethylene typically have a quarter-inch seam around the edges, much as we see in the in situ photo.
Did you mean to say "sample bags made of Teflon typically have a ..."?
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Teflon looks a lot like polyethylene. And sample bags made of polyethylene typically have a quarter-inch seam around the edges, much as we see in the in situ photo.
Did you mean to say "sample bags made of Teflon typically have a ..."?
Of course I did. ::)
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Did you mean to say "sample bags made of Teflon typically have a ..."?
Of course I did. ::)
Fluorine, hydrogen, what's the difference? At least the polymer structures are essentially the same.
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Teflon looks a lot like polyethylene. And sample bags made of polyethylene typically have a quarter-inch seam around the edges, much as we see in the in situ photo.
Did you mean to say "sample bags made of Teflon typically have a ..."?
Of course I did. ::)
Whizzes over my head.
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Whizzes over my head.
No, that was polystyrene. On Apollos 16 and 17...
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It's going to be a sad day when the last Apollo astronaut passes into the undiscovered country and a human who knows what it's like to walk or orbit the moon will no longer be still with us.
I'm glad we can contact these people while we still can.
xkcd (http://xkcd.com/893/)
:(
Be sure to read the mouse-over text.
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It's going to be a sad day when the last Apollo astronaut passes into the undiscovered country and a human who knows what it's like to walk or orbit the moon will no longer be still with us.
I'm glad we can contact these people while we still can.
xkcd (http://xkcd.com/893/)
:(
Be sure to read the mouse-over text.
Oh, I have. I just hope we get to see those planets, as sad as it will be. Let's hope for a future without a Fermi paradox, as we will be the aliens, and we will be there!
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It's going to be a sad day when the last Apollo astronaut passes into the undiscovered country and a human who knows what it's like to walk or orbit the moon will no longer be still with us.
I'm glad we can contact these people while we still can.
xkcd (http://xkcd.com/893/)
:(
Be sure to read the mouse-over text.
Oh, I have. I just hope we get to see those planets, as sad as it will be. Let's hope for a future without a Fermi paradox, as we will be the aliens, and we will be there!
With a lack of political will, travel to other planets won't happen, Frank Borman said, people aren't interested in exploration, but they sure as hell were interested in beating trhe Russians (to the moon)
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Charlie Duke interview with questions concerning hoax nuts.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/aljazeeracorrespondent/2015/10/charlie-duke-moon-151021154201652.html
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Charlie Duke interview with questions concerning hoax nuts.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/aljazeeracorrespondent/2015/10/charlie-duke-moon-151021154201652.html
More than anything I love the fact that he can't remember Bart Sibrel's name.
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Charlie Duke interview with questions concerning hoax nuts.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/aljazeeracorrespondent/2015/10/charlie-duke-moon-151021154201652.html
More than anything I love the fact that he can't remember Bart Sibrel's name.
He like many of us older generation suffer from CRS.
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Well, and doubtless to the HBs' dismay, they just aren't that important. We remember their names because this is our hobby. The astronauts don't, because they don't care.
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Well, and doubtless to the HBs' dismay, they just aren't that important. We remember their names because this is our hobby. The astronauts don't, because they don't care.
Not important but unfortunately persuasive to the "critical" thinkers out there
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Well, and doubtless to the HBs' dismay, they just aren't that important. We remember their names because this is our hobby. The astronauts don't, because they don't care.
Thank you, Gillianren, for my biggest out-loud laugh today - it's 2:06 am - and for most of yesterday. That's up with the best quotes from JayUtah. Brief, to the point, accurate, exquisite, and very funny. Well done! One of the politest ever comments of its type.
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Thank you kindly, Kiwi!
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Well, an update...
I've heard back from one of the three people I had as backup contacts, since none of my other sources have panned out, and I was sent a PDF copy of an obscure NASA report on fireproofing materials in the Apollo Spacecraft (damn thing was so long and technical that it took me two days to read it!) but I found this one interesting tidbit on page 322. A photograph of food stowage in the LM, with a caption that indicates that we're on the right track to obtaining the answer to our question.
I stress that I do not find this to be a definitive answer, nor do I find it even rises to the level of evidentiary status, but it is at least an indicator that the research is on the right track.
The figure is titled "fig. 14-12. Food Container"
I think that I might be on to something, in that the label referring to the primary wrap for each of the packages could be what we're looking for.
I am going to continue to try to get to the bottom of this.
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Duke recounts the episode in 'The Wonder of it All'
It's here
at 45:21
He describes it just as 'a little piece of shrink-wrap plastic'.
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This is a great video, presenting the human experience of those men on the moon instead of the technology/science that enabled them to get to the moon.
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I enjoyed watching it, but I'm glad I found it on youtube first as I would have preferred more NASA footage on something I'd paid money for.
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Just heard back from my friend (who retired from NASA last May) who finally got a reply from his contact at NASA. The second guy works in the Human Exploration and Operations directorate, and who asked my friend to "keep his name out of this" (I don't know why) about the exact type of film used to make the bag in which the photo was encased.
Hint, it is not "shrink wrap"
According to the contact at NASA, it was a polyethylene film that the Crew Systems Support division has used since the Gemini program.
The only thing the guy would tell my friend is that it is a "standard ASTM-D2103 polyethylene" film.
So, not having access to ASTM or their technical library, this is as far as I can get. I am going to try to see if I can get in touch with anyone at the library at HQ in DC to see if they can point me to the right technical document, although I've searched that database for several days now with no results. I don't know that this can be called a completely definitive answer, since it's second-hand hearsay without physical documentation, but at least I know what I am looking for now. It's easier to prove something when you know exactly what it is that you're looking for.
I must say though, I am surprised that everyone is so ready to accept a You Tube video as "evidence" :P
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ASTM is a paid service, so yeah. You can say with confidence that it's polyethylene without having to delve into the deep minutia of ASTM testing regimes.
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I did say it looked like HDPE...
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but has anyone ever attempted to contact Charlie Duke to ask him what kind of plastic bag the photo was in?
Charlie Duke occasionally comes here to help with fundraising for the Boy Scouts in my area. I've met him a couple of times. If he comes by again, I will try to remember to ask him.
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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but has anyone ever attempted to contact Charlie Duke to ask him what kind of plastic bag the photo was in?
Charlie Duke occasionally comes here to help with fundraising for the Boy Scouts in my area. I've met him a couple of times. If he comes by again, I will try to remember to ask him.
Ishkabibble already emailed him so I doubt he would remember anything different
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Popped up on my facebook feed today:
http://www.thejournal.ie/moon-photo-2421201-Nov2015/
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Popped up on my facebook feed today:
http://www.thejournal.ie/moon-photo-2421201-Nov2015/
At least it gives us something to discuss. Too bad Jim Irwin is dead, we could maybe get another story
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I did say it looked like HDPE...
Yes, you did. And I even thought to myself at the time "maybe this guy's on to something"
But now we have definitive confirmation that it was indeed polyethylene film from which the bag was made.
Good going!