Author Topic: Our friend Hunchbacked is back  (Read 29948 times)

Offline carpediem

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2015, 06:37:40 PM »
Can some kind person sum up what his problem with core-rope memory is? I'm not up for suffering through his grating voice while waiting for him to get to the point.
I've never heard Hunchbacked's voice in any of his videos.

Offline bknight

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2015, 06:50:46 PM »
Can some kind person sum up what his problem with core-rope memory is? I'm not up for suffering through his grating voice while waiting for him to get to the point.
I've never heard Hunchbacked's voice in any of his videos.
All I heard was music along with his flip board diagrams of electronic components and their wire diagrams
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Offline Abaddon

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2015, 08:09:15 PM »
Can some kind person sum up what his problem with core-rope memory is? I'm not up for suffering through his grating voice while waiting for him to get to the point.
It seems to amount to the fact that he can't figure it out, therefore it de facto cannot be true.

Personally, my opinion is he really has not even made the attempt. It really is not difficult.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2015, 08:43:46 PM »
My recollection is that he could speak knowledgeably only about relatively recent Intel-type home computer architectures and their associated technologies.  Other architectures were simply unknown to him.  The notion that there could be other architectures was similarly unknown to him. 
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline bknight

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2015, 08:51:30 PM »
My recollection is that he could speak knowledgeably only about relatively recent Intel-type home computer architectures and their associated technologies.  Other architectures were simply unknown to him.  The notion that there could be other architectures was similarly unknown to him.
He railed against the MIT personnel  with a last comment "they" couldn't speak up with their concerns.  Actually I thought the MIT guys did great in problem solving real time issues, along with the original design.  abbadon probably said it correctly, I don't understand how it works therefore it can't work
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Offline raven

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2015, 09:57:55 PM »
I admit, I don't pretend to know how that stuff works, but then, I don't pretend to know how that stuff works.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2015, 10:20:15 PM »
Can some kind person sum up what his problem with core-rope memory is? I'm not up for suffering through his grating voice while waiting for him to get to the point.
He often invents spurious design "rules" violated by the system in question. He's never able to explain where the rules come from or to derive them from basic physics. His only real justification is that he's never seen things done that way anywhere else, and besides it comes from NASA so it can't possibly work.

Basically, it's a lack of imagination coupled with limited experience and knowledge that makes him think he knows much more than he does. Few things are more dangerous.

The key element of the core rope memory, which I didn't understand when I first looked at it, is magnetic saturation. Unlike read-write core memory, where individual cores retain a magnetized state encoding a 0 or a 1, core rope memory cores are "soft" -- they do not remain magnetized when the external field is removed. They are actually transformer cores whose degree of magnetization follows the strength of the current in the wire(s) running through them. But like all magnetic materials, you can magnetize them only so far; once all the little domains are pointing in the same direction, you can't point any more and core magnetization stops rising. The core saturates, and as long as it remains saturated any further changes in the applied magnetic field no longer induce a voltage in other wires running through it. (A transformer can induce a voltage only when the magnetic field in its core is changing.)

This is the key to the core rope memory. Each address line is provided in inverted and non-inverted form, i.e., there are two wires for each address bit, one carrying current when the address bit is a '1' and the other carrying current when the bit is a '0'. They are all weaved through the cores in such a way that every core has at least one wire carrying current except the one being addressed.

The current in each address line is strong enough to saturate the magnetic core material, inhibiting its ability to couple (act as a transformer) a pulse in a readout query wire to a sense wire. The query wire runs through every core, but the sense wire either goes through a core or around it, depending on whether a '1' or a '0' is encoded at that location. (The data is literally woven into the rope.) The sense wire then goes to an amplifier to detect the pulse, if present.

Again, the key feature is magnetic saturation. The only core able to act as a transformer to couple the readout pulse to the sense wire is the one with no current through any of its address lines, and there's only one of those for any given address. A core with one or more active address lines saturates and is inhibited. In other words, it forms a multi-input NOR (negative OR) gate without using any semiconductors.

To me this was the really clever part. It would have taken thousands of ordinary logic gates to decode the address lines. That's easy today but not in the 1960s when every integrated circuit in the AGC contained just two 3-input NOR gates.

Of course this technique has long been obsolete, and because hunchbacked has never seen it anywhere else he insists it can't work here.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 10:23:27 PM by ka9q »

Offline ka9q

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2015, 10:39:38 PM »
Some more on core rope memory (since it's such a clever design, even though it's long obsolete).

My previous description encodes only a single bit per core, so why not just use ordinary read-write core memory?

Because core rope isn't limited to a single bit per core. You can have multiple sense lines in a single rope, each going through a core or bypassing it depending on whether you're encoding a '1' or a '0'. With 8 wires you can encode a byte at each core, with 16 you can encode a word, and so on. This is how core rope memory got its high density at the cost of being read-only and difficult to manufacture, but that's what counted in the Apollo project.

This is where hunchbacked objects with a spurious design rule. He claims that with so many wires running through a core the readout pulses would be too weak to detect, but he can't base his objection in actual physics. He would actually be right if the extra wires were short-circuited, but they're not. The non-driven address lines are open circuited, and the sense wires feed a high impedance amplifier that puts a minimal load on them.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2015, 11:53:26 PM »
Can some kind person sum up what his problem with core-rope memory is? I'm not up for suffering through his grating voice while waiting for him to get to the point.
I've never heard Hunchbacked's voice in any of his videos.

Ah, sorry -- I was thinking of the Blunder.

The waiting until he gets to the point still stands, tho. My experience of too many conspiracy believer videos is they like the emotional build-up and the long stretches of sombre/scary music over slow Ken-Burnsing of grainy stills...a lot more than they like actually explaining what it is they are so hopped up about.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2015, 05:22:26 AM »
Another example (one of many) of Hunchbacked's spurious design rules is in the FM transmitter on the LM, used when transmitting video.

I looked at the design. I recognize it as being in just about every amateur (ham) radio FM transmitter since I became a ham in 1971; it's a classic. It uses a frequency synthesizer to produce the desired S-band frequency from a reference oscillator using a high stability crystal.

A voltage-controlled oscillator (VCO) produces the actual carrier signal. The VCO is also digitally divided down to a relatively low comparison frequency. So is the reference oscillator, by another division factor. The two signals are compared and an error voltage is generated that's proportional to their phase difference. The error signal is filtered and fed back to the VCO, keeping the loop in lock.  If the VCO divisor is N and the crystal divisor is M, then the VCO output frequency will be the reference frequency multiplied by N/M. So to tune the radio you change the values of N and/or M. The LM transmitter, however, is tuned to a fixed frequency, 2282.5 MHz.

So how is the FM done? The error signal is filtered by a low pass filter so only "slow" phase errors are passed and tracked out by the loop. High frequency phase noise in the VCO is not corrected, so it's designed to minimize it. You simply add the FM signal to the VCO input downstream of the loop filter, and voila -- the VCO frequency varies with the FM signal around its nominal value. The only drawback is that modulation frequency components must be above the loop frequency cutoff or the loop will track them out as VCO phase noise. "DC restorer" techniques have long been used to do this with analog video waveforms.

Again, this is a classic circuit, widely used for many decades. So what's hunchbacked's problem? He claims the values of N and M are "too big", despite the fact that similar values are used in lots of places and there's no real limitation. Showing him schematics of ham and FM broadcast transmitters that use the same technique didn't seem to phase (!) him; he always managed to find some irrelevant difference from the Apollo transmitter.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 05:29:27 AM by ka9q »

Offline bknight

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2015, 07:58:25 AM »
...
Great descriptions, both went over my limited knowledge of EE, and I believe that is how he may attract many, because his approach while flawed from an experts knowledge id good enough to fool novices like myself.  When he talks about shadows or perspective I'm more at ease attempting to debunk him, even though I'm not an expert there either, but his descriptions are nonsense many time.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2015, 11:24:02 AM »
Showing him schematics of ham and FM broadcast transmitters that use the same technique didn't seem to phase (!) him;...

I see what you did there.  ;)

But seriously, thanks for the explanations.  My impression is that Hunchback's tactics very much depend on people accepting him as a qualified aerospace engineer, a graduate from a prestigious French school.  As a matter of actual fact, he seems to know very little -- perhaps only that which he's picked up as a hobbyist.  But apparently he wants people to think that his eminent academic qualifications mean his explanations should be given unquestioned authority.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline ka9q

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2015, 12:05:35 PM »
My impression is that Hunchback's tactics very much depend on people accepting him as a qualified aerospace engineer, a graduate from a prestigious French school.
Exactly. He even has a sockpuppet account called "Aerospace Engineer".
Quote
As a matter of actual fact, he seems to know very little -- perhaps only that which he's picked up as a hobbyist.  But apparently he wants people to think that his eminent academic qualifications mean his explanations should be given unquestioned authority.
I can't tell if he's a hobbyist. He claims to work in the industry, though he's rather vague about exactly what he does. I will say I know quite a few hobbyists who know more than he does, though that's damning with faint praise.

What I can't figure out is how he ever learned anything at all with his know-it-all attitude -- even just enough to be dangerous.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 12:07:16 PM by ka9q »

Offline bknight

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2015, 12:22:09 PM »

But seriously, thanks for the explanations.  My impression is that Hunchback's tactics very much depend on people accepting him as a qualified aerospace engineer, a graduate from a prestigious French school.  As a matter of actual fact, he seems to know very little -- perhaps only that which he's picked up as a hobbyist.  But apparently he wants people to think that his eminent academic qualifications mean his explanations should be given unquestioned authority.
That was precisely what I was thinking about those that aren't educated in EE, especially.  I question them because of the subject matter (Apollo) happened, but he can persuade the novices or fence "sitters"
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline bknight

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Re: Our friend Hunchbacked is back
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2015, 12:28:32 PM »
He did mention Clavius in a recent video concerning videos of landing/ascent of the LM.  He makes bug ASSUMPTIONS on the ability of the RCS systems to correct the sinusoidal motion of ascent and the orientation of the lander during descent.  Both observation were laughable.  He doesn't see what he should and see what isn't there.  In addition his demonstrations of the movement are grossly exaggerated as opposed to the actual motions.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan