Trump will win?

[smartcooky]

I'm pretty sure you'd find most of the world (outside of Russia) thinks the US is crazy for voting for Trump.

I'll go along with that. We think y'all just sat the most important exam of your liftetimes, and failed.

There are three things that are really concerning about Trump to those living outside of the US

1. The environment: He thinks man-made climate change is not a reality, and he will act accordingly, undoing years of work towards agreements to reduce Greenhouse gases. While wind turbine manufacturers like Vestas Wind Systems have fallen 13 percent since the election, US Coal companies have risen 60 tp 75%. In his only policy speech on energy, Trump said he would rescind what he called “job-destroying” environmental regulations within 100 days of taking office and he would revive  U.S. coal. This would be a disaster for efforts to combat climate change

2. Trump is used to getting is own way, and when he doesn't, he uses power and money to destroy people who piss him off. He won't be able to do that with the rest of the world. Geopolitics is not like running a business. I find the idea of Trump with the nuclear codes and keys even more terrifying than the idea that Sarah Palin might have ended up with them. Trump could end up being humanity's Great Filter!

3. Trump's election to the US Presidency has made Vladimir Putin (who IMO, is a criminal) the most powerful geo-politician in the world, and that is a very, very worrying thing. I would not want to be a resident of the Ukraine right now, they must be crapping themselves.

Also think he will cut spending on the US Space Programs, so thank heavens for innovative companies like Elon Musk's SpaceX and Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin. Without them, the push to Mars cold be set back 50 years.

[Peter B]

The left has this belief that if they think something is a bad idea that it is a universal truth that it is a bad idea.

...right wing people live in little empathy-free bubbles where those things aren't problems until it affects them personally.

Come on, people, the left-right stereotyping doesn't help anyone.

Something interesting that's happening in Australia is the growing support for independent candidates in our Senate. Thanks to the sort-of proportional representation voting system, and six seats up for grabs in each state at normal elections, there's lots of room for people to be elected who hold views different to the major parties.

In our current Senate (76 seats) there are 30 from the Liberals and Nationals (conservative), 26 from the Labor Party (progressive), 9 Greens (well, green!), 4 Pauline Hanson (anti-immigration arch-conservative), 3 Nick Xenophon (centrist), 1 Liberal Democrat (libertarian) and three other independents of variable political views. If the government wants to pass contentious legislation it's got to do a lot of negotiating and horse-trading to find the 9 extra votes it needs: crossbench support changes for virtually every vote. And for all that the Coalition and Labor hurl invective at each other across the floor of Parliament, sometimes even they vote together to pass some legislation.

[gwiz]

I'm pretty sure you'd find most of the world (outside of Russia) thinks the US is crazy for voting for Trump.

Quite.  Just as most of the world (Putin apart) think that we in the UK are crazy for voting for Brexit and would think the French crazy if they go for Le Pen.  These campaigns seem to resonate with people in one country only, perhaps you need a bit of distance to see the drawbacks.

[twik]

You know, it says something about Trumpism that some people on a board dedicated to defeating the Moon Hoax could support a man who:

- Believes climate change is a hoax
- Believes that one of his political opponent's family helped assassinate Kennedy
- Believes vaccines are dangerous
- And most of all, believes that President Obama was hiding his birth certificate and other records because there was something that would invalidate his presidency.

The man's a walking crank magnet. If Breitbart tells him the Moon landings were a hoax, he'll try to close down NASA. And yet he has defenders here, apparently.

As for the argument that "he really won't be as extreme as his position statements indicate, he's just playing to his lunatic fringe base," at the risk of introducing a Godwin, this was exactly what many hopeful people said about Hitler. He wasn't really going to do anything to the Jews. His rants about them were just to get votes from people who felt the Jews were responsible for Germany's loss in the War. (See Snopes http://www.snopes.com/1922-new-york-times-hitler/ for more.)

Trump may well find that he's unable to do everything he plans. But I think he'll try. His first step was putting a climate-change denier in a science post.

Next step, since he has the House and Congress, is to put in judges who will do the bidding of the loony right*. There's absolutely nothing to stop him, and that can affect the path of the U.S. for a generation. He's chosen a Vice President, after all, who stated "I also believe that some day, scientists will come to see that only the theory of intelligent design provides [the only] even remotely rational explanation for the known universe." Why not a few Supreme Court judges who believe states have the right to ban teaching of evolution except as a flawed "theory"?

How anyone who hopes for the advancement of science sees Trump's election as anything but a disaster is a mystery to me.

*Note: This is not to call all conservatives loony. Many sane, intelligent people have conservative fiscal and/or social views. But let's face it, the right's lunatic fringe is longer, louder and stronger these days than the left's.

[gillianren]

I don't know if anyone else watches The Daily Show, but one of their correspondents is Muslim.  He was born in Davis, California.  His mom is currently in India, where the family is originally from, dealing with some family business.  It's going to delay her until February.  She's a naturalized citizen.  She has been for thirty years.  But our President Elect said he would ban all Muslims from entering the US (which, side note, is sooooooo unconstitutional!), and she's afraid, and not without reason, that it would include her.  Because when asked to clarify, he wouldn't say "of course that doesn't include US citizens!"

Not that it would have been right either way, because more terrorism in the US is committed by white males, and I think we can all agree that it would be wrong to stereotype all white males as terrorists, too.

[Bob B.]

I don't think you need to be an extreme leftist to value clean air and drinking water, or ...

You were nonspecific about what you considered "terrible ideas".  To suggest that I want dirty air and water, etc. is putting words in my mouth.

Trump could negatively affect 55% of the population and your response was "I don't care about that". Maybe you should.

I voted for what I think means more jobs and prosperity for 100%.  I wasn't going to throw that vote away on something that could (and in my opinion very unlike to) affect 55%.

I respect your right to feel strongly about the issues that are most important to you.  It seems rather intolerant on your part not to recognized that there are other important issues facing this nation that I might think are more important at this time.

How is the right any different?

They're not really.  The difference I see though among the everyday people I actually know is that conservatives just want to be left alone to live our lives without people meddling.  Liberals on the other hand mostly react with self-righteous condemnation of those with whom they disagree.

This thread is a prime example.  I've never called anyone a moron for voting for Hillary Clinton, I never said that anyone who voted for her did so unwisely, and I never looked down on anyone for having different voting priorities than I.  I simply explained in a rational way what my priorities are and why that lead me to vote the way that I did.  In response we get nothing but post after post by liberals who just want to demonize.

If you want to know why Trump won, just look in the mirror.  Although I've never been a Trump fan, and I voted for him only very reluctantly, his biggest supporters did so in large part to give a big middle finger to the left.
 

[twik]

Can you explain why you believe a man who consistently runs his own businesses into the ground would lead to prosperity? Because if I recall correctly Mr. Clinton didn't exactly cause the Great Depression. Neither, for that matter, did Mr. Obama. The Bushes were much worse for the economy.

If I had to vote between the two candidates on a strictly economic basis, I would not have chosen Trump. He is a dilettante whose solution for a failing business is to skip town and blame everyone else.

Furthermore, when you say "The difference I see though among the everyday people I actually know is that conservatives just want to be left alone to live our lives without people meddling," do you not think that perhaps gays, women and immigrants want the same thing?

[smartcooky]

This thread is a prime example.  I've never called anyone a moron for voting for Hillary Clinton, I never said that anyone who voted for her did so unwisely, and I never looked down on anyone for having different voting priorities than I.  I simply explained in a rational way what my priorities are and why that lead me to vote the way that I did.  In response we get nothing but post after post by liberals who just want to demonize.

I am ex-military and have never voted for any left of centre politician in my life. I despise Social Engineering and social interference in my life, and I think SJWs are busybodies and a blight on the face of the planet. I believe man-made climate change is damaging the planet and risking the future of humanity and I am a financial supporter of both Greenpeace and the Sea Shepherd Society. I recycle as much as possible. I believe evolution is real and I do not believe god or any other magical deities.  I believe Intelligent Design is a load of unmitigated claptrap,

I am what you might call a "Conservative with a conscience", there are more of us out there that you might imagine, and I hope there are a few in the GOP - the future of humanity might be depending on them.

Not all people who demonize or dislike Trump are "Loony Liberals".

[twik]

Bob B., the problem is that you appear to be saying that as long as there's more money in your pocket at the end of the day:

- You don't care if the U.S. rejects working towards stopping climate change, possibly dooming our future existence on this planet.
- You don't care if the rights of gay Americans are rescinded.
- You don't care if women lose the right to an abortion, even under circumstances such as rape or serious health risk.
- You don't care if the millions of undocumented workers are deported
- You don't care if Muslims' are denied entry to the U.S. (maybe even if they're citizens) simply because of their religion.
- You don't care how many refugees are turned away.
- You don't care if funding for real science is cut, and the voices of scientists are silenced.
- You don't care if America is led by a man who brags about sexual assault, and whose advice for his own daughter if she were sexually harassed is "find another job ... or maybe a new career."
- You don't care if your country is led by the man endorsed by the Klu Klux Klan, and who encourages his supporters to beat dissidents at his rallies.

You don't sound like a moron, but it sends of vibe of "I got mine, sucks if you don't have yours."

To say "I don't think Trump will actually do any of these vile things he's promised" is an odd approach. Most people get upset when their winning candidate doesn't do what they promised. Trump supporters are the only ones I've encountered who claim that they would actually be upset if he did what he promised - except for the issue (lower taxes, stopping abortion, building his wall) that they favour. That one thing, whatever it is, makes them forget all the rest.

[Bob B.]

Furthermore, when you say "The difference I see though among the everyday people I actually know is that conservatives just want to be left alone to live our lives without people meddling," do you not think that perhaps gays, women and immigrants want the same thing?

Of course, which is why I'm pro-choice and, although I'm not real enthusiastic about it, pro gay marriage.  I'm also all for legal immigration.

[Bob B.]

Regarding the environment...

I attending the University of Cincinnati's college of Civil and Environmental Engineering.  I spend my entire career building water and wastewater treatment plants.  In fact, the slogan of the company from which I retired was "Building a Better Environment."  I have done more in my life to protect the environment and provide clean safe drinking water than probably all of you put together.  So please don't lecture me on protecting the environment because I was out there actually doing it for over 30 years.

[Bob B.]

Bob B., the problem is that you appear to be saying that as long as there's more money in your pocket at the end of the day:

- You don't care if the U.S. rejects working towards stopping climate change, possibly dooming our future existence on this planet.
- You don't care if the rights of gay Americans are rescinded.
- You don't care if women lose the right to an abortion, even under circumstances such as rape or serious health risk.
- You don't care if the millions of undocumented workers are deported
- You don't care if Muslims' are denied entry to the U.S. (maybe even if they're citizens) simply because of their religion.
- You don't care how many refugees are turned away.
- You don't care if funding for real science is cut, and the voices of scientists are silenced.
- You don't care if America is led by a man who brags about sexual assault, and whose advice for his own daughter if she were sexually harassed is "find another job ... or maybe a new career."
- You don't care if your country is led by the man endorsed by the Klu Klux Klan, and who encourages his supporters to beat dissidents at his rallies.

You don't sound like a moron, but it sends of vibe of "I got mine, sucks if you don't have yours."

To say "I don't think Trump will actually do any of these vile things he's promised" is an odd approach. Most people get upset when their winning candidate doesn't do what they promised. Trump supporters are the only ones I've encountered who claim that they would actually be upset if he did what he promised - except for the issue (lower taxes, stopping abortion, building his wall) that they favour. That one thing, whatever it is, makes them forget all the rest.

The self-righteous condemnation is strong in this one.

By the way, I'm retired and no longer earning an income.  So my desire for more jobs and higher incomes comes from my concern for struggling working families.  I don't have much of a personal stake in it at all.
 

[Bob B.]

Not all people who demonize or dislike Trump are "Loony Liberals".

I don't like him either.  Unfortunately I found the alternative candidate reprehensible as well, only in different ways.  Although I'm a centrist on most social issues, I'm a strong fiscal conservative first.  On that basis I reluctantly went with the republican candidate with whom I at least shared a few core principals.  Had I not voted for Trump I would have abstained from casting a presidential vote.  I was actually quite dismayed over Trump's nomination and really struggled for a long time with what I was going to do.  In the past I have always voted for the republican candidate without hesitation, but this was much tougher.

By the way, my position and choice in this election was pretty common.  Obviously Clinton had her supporters and Trump had his.  But, according to the exit polls, those who said they disliked both candidates, the overwhelming majority voted for Trump.
   

[Jason Thompson]

In response we get nothing but post after post by liberals who just want to demonize.

This is something I am struggling to understand. I have seen variations on this several times from various people, regarding both Trump's victory and the success of the 'Vote Leave' campaign here in the UK. Crticism of the politicians involved is dismissed as 'demonising'.

What I don't understand is why the criticisms are invalid. We are talking, on both sides of the pond, about individuals who have threatened violence to those who disagree with them; tarred vast swathes of 'unlike' populations as terrorists, rapists or the like; have bragged or joked about sexually assaulting women; support the idea of denying a woman the right to control her own body (most notably, after a man has done something to alter it); are anti-gay; and have shown a history of failing to take resposibility for the consequences of their actions. This is all demonstrably true. This is all based on stuff that came out of their own mouths. And yet calling this out is seen as 'demonising' the candidate somehow. We should all look past this vile behaviour to the plans and policies, apparently (something especially difficult with the guys who campaigned to leave the EU as it has become apparent they don't even have a plan!).

Well no, I won't. These men are privileged white males who are bigoted, homophobic and misogynistic. I don't give a damn what their policies are, I won't vote for that person for any reason. All that does (and has done) is legitimise their bigotry, homophobia and misogyny.

This is not demonising. This is calling out the fact that people have voted for vile individuals. Whatever their reasons and reluctance and so on, people have voted for them. Saying 'oh it's OK because they're part of a government system that will keep them in check' doesn't alter that fact. It has nothing to do with left or right politics, but with simple human decency.

So maybe I'm just deluding myself, but are we really at a point where politics, economics and decency are utterly incompatible, so we must choose between one or the other? If so I don't want to live on this planet any more. Since I have no choice, however, I shall not be shy about voicing my views on the results of the elections.

Bob, none of this is personal. I respect you as an individual and I respect your right to vote however you decide. That doesn't stop me thinking it was a mistake, and that you had to turn a blind eye to some pretty appalling stuff in order to do it, and I wish you hadn't, however.

[LunarOrbit]

I respect your right to feel strongly about the issues that are most important to you.  It seems rather intolerant on your part not to recognized that there are other important issues facing this nation that I might think are more important at this time.

I think the boosting the economy and job creation are very important issues. I disagree with you that the only way to achieve those goals is to vote for Republicans. And I certainly don't believe that Trump is the best person to do it.

How is the right any different?

They're not really.  The difference I see though among the everyday people I actually know is that conservatives just want to be left alone to live our lives without people meddling.

Liberals don't want people meddling with their lives either, Bob. We don't want the government telling us who we're allowed to marry, or whether it's okay for a college student to get an abortion after she was drugged and raped in her dorm. We don't want the right imposing their religious beliefs on us, telling us what books we're allowed to read, or what scientific advances we're allowed to pursue.

Liberals on the other hand mostly react with self-righteous condemnation of those with whom they disagree.

Once again, you might as well be describing a conservative. But we're not the ones telling people they can't marry just because we don't want to make them a cake. We're not the ones refusing to issue people a drivers licence because we don't approve of their lifestyle.

I've never called anyone a moron for voting for Hillary Clinton

I'm certain no one is calling you a moron. I've known you for darn near 20 years now, and you've proven time after time how intelligent you are. But there are a lot of uneducated people who voted for Trump because they thought he would make it okay to start discriminating against minorities again.

I think you're a one issue voter, just like a lot of people on both sides. You're probably also someone who votes for the party, not the person chosen to lead it. You've likely been voting the same way for your whole adult life, and in any other election I would have had no problem with that. But this has not been a normal election, and I just wish you had widened your view a bit beyond the economic issues that matter to you.

If you want to know why Trump won, just look in the mirror.  Although I've never been a Trump fan, and I voted for him only very reluctantly, his biggest supporters did so in large part to give a big middle finger to the left.

I think there are a lot of reasons why he won, and yes, that's probably one of them. The left has been demonized by the right wing media for as long as I can remember, so it's not surprising that they hate us. But that doesn't mean it's not irrational.

The right wing media has convinced people that going to war and killing people is good, but giving people affordable healthcare in order to save lives is the work of Satan. That is how twisted your country has become.