Radiation

[timfinch]

Did I mention the Orion travelled 3600 miles into the VAB (an earth radii is 3959 miles).  I wasn't sure if I mentioned that...

[timfinch]

The December 2014 Orion test flight was flown in preparation for manned explorations to the Moon and to Mars.
With a trajectory designed principally to examine the heat shield performance at re-entry, Orion had to make a highly elliptical orbit taking it some 3,600miles/5,800km off the surface of the planet into the region of the lower (or inner) Van Allen belt. As a result, even though Orion’s apogee was well shy of the worst part of this inner belt, (another 2,344 miles further out) Orion carried instrumentation for registering the radiation environment in the craft’s interior.[1]

[Luke Pemberton]

Do you ever wonder what it is like to be caught in the death grip of a boa constrictor?

The closest snake metaphor appropriate here is a snake oil salesman, let's just clear up that confusion firstly.

You have been lied to.

That assumes that no one here had the forethought to check the path, and took the material at face value. There was a entire discussion asking for Bob to clarify his work, as others did not initially grasp the 2D over 3D issue. It is a slight mind bend to beign with, but if one puts in the leg work they get there eventually.

Here is the actual path through the VAB.

No, you're another person that doesn't comprehend 3D from 2D, but aren't prepared to go away and ponder the issue. Given you can't comprehend graphs and averages, I don't expect you to understand the complexities of the orbital mechanics.

The Apollo craft traversed through a region of the belt where the electrons were more populous. The flux of those electrons at higher energies falls off rapidly.

Have you also considered the actual data and how it is transformed using the correct coordinate system? Bob did that work, and there is a little bit of math that needs to be done, don't ask us for the math when you have been posted to a link that shows you the math.

This is like being caught in the grip of a common garden worm. Wet and slimy, but completely innocuous. 

[Allan F]

No matter what YOU think, tim, there was a sheet of stainless steel in the CM's wall. Beneath the phenolic resin and the aluminium face plate. So the secondary radiation created by the very light nuclei would hit this steel and STOP. It could not reach the crew.

Your inability to research the construction of the CM is not an argument against the Apollo moon landings.

[timfinch]

Luke, you insist a 2d representation is misleading but you are sadly mistaken but if there exist such a misrepresentation then it exist soley in the mind of you and your compatriots.  the 3d representation perpetuates the same deception as the 2d ones did.  They all neglect to shift the magnetic equator 11.5 degrees off.  If they included the correction for the actual representation of the VAB then, well, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Instead you would be right in the middle of a polish head slap..  I am starting to believe that either you are actively in opposition of the truth because you really couldn't be this dumb.

[timfinch]

No matter what YOU think, tim, there was a sheet of stainless steel in the CM's wall. Beneath the phenolic resin and the aluminium face plate. So the secondary radiation created by the very light nuclei would hit this steel and STOP. It could not reach the crew.

Your inability to research the construction of the CM is not an argument against the Apollo moon landings.

I have never questioned the construction of the Apollo..  I simply contend not a gram of material was added for the purpose of shielding and the structural material offered some protection from electrons, it offered none and even worse it increased overall exposure or would have if they had ventured beyond LEO.

[MBDK]

If it as you would have use believe, that 8 gm/cm^3 aluminum shielding can shield 90% of proton flux and assuming in doing so no secondary radiation is created then using Braeunig's own totals of 179.67 rem for both transits would still yield 17.97 rem.  Make that work without magic.

First of all, if you think the amended graph you posted with your version of the Apollo flight path added added any relevance regarding the amount of protons aluminum can shield you are VERY wrong there, also.  The statement you made above is equally as wrong, which shows how little you really understand about shielding and its relation to flux.  Example, how much of a 2x10EE8 proton per square centimeter per second flux, with energies between .1 MeV and 1 MeV, would 1 mm of aluminum stop?

[Allan F]

Of course a 2d representation of a 3d structure is misleading. Especially when the 2d model you use is a plot of altitude vs. velocity, and NOT position.

[onebigmonkey]

The December 2014 Orion test flight was flown in preparation for manned explorations to the Moon and to Mars.
With a trajectory designed principally to examine the heat shield performance at re-entry, Orion had to make a highly elliptical orbit taking it some 3,600miles/5,800km off the surface of the planet into the region of the lower (or inner) Van Allen belt. As a result, even though Orion’s apogee was well shy of the worst part of this inner belt, (another 2,344 miles further out) Orion carried instrumentation for registering the radiation environment in the craft’s interior.[1]

Please, you're quoting these charlatans now?

http://www.aulis.com/orion_vanallens.htm

How about you explain why Orion's mission profile was designed that way, maybe bring us some results.

How about you explain how China's lunar surface show evidence of human activity at the Apollo sites?

[timfinch]

We know that the VAB is 37000 miles long

Along the geomagentic equator maybe, but as you have been told and shown repeatedly, the Apollo spacecraft did not take that route (indeed it was virtually impossible for it to do so due to the different inclinations ot the orbit and the geomagentic plane) so why do you think using the full thickness of the belt is valid?

Actually a good question.  I used it because we all know the VAB expansds thousands of miles during Solar max and not having any reference I thought it a fairly conservative estimate.

Jason with regard to this 37000 figure do you know of a 3d picture or chat which shows the 3d path the vehicles took to transverse the edges. I have seen many 2d's but not 3d

Ben here is the video

brill thanks for that

You like that? have another...

These animations make it clear how the worst of the VAB were avoided.

Unfortunately, they also demonstrate how TF is unable to fathom 3 dimensions.

ETA: I am wondering what TF will make of the contour lines?

Now if you rotate the geomagnetic equator 11.5 degrees to the north and slow the revolution down to something realistic then this would be an outstanding representation

[timfinch]

The December 2014 Orion test flight was flown in preparation for manned explorations to the Moon and to Mars.
With a trajectory designed principally to examine the heat shield performance at re-entry, Orion had to make a highly elliptical orbit taking it some 3,600miles/5,800km off the surface of the planet into the region of the lower (or inner) Van Allen belt. As a result, even though Orion’s apogee was well shy of the worst part of this inner belt, (another 2,344 miles further out) Orion carried instrumentation for registering the radiation environment in the craft’s interior.[1]

Please, you're quoting these charlatans now?

http://www.aulis.com/orion_vanallens.htm

How about you explain why Orion's mission profile was designed that way, maybe bring us some results.

How about you explain how China's lunar surface show evidence of human activity at the Apollo sites?

It would be more rewarding for you to explain why all extraterrestrial flights do not take this mystical low exposure path through the VAB or as you would like us to believe use apollo shielding which eliminates practically all radiation exposure.  I am more that willing to extrapolate Orion exposure out to the extents of the VAB to prove my point but you don't want to do that do you?

[timfinch]

ONEBIGMONKEY,  I am unaware of any proof of a manned landing.  If there was such evidence then why is there a debate.  Nothing seen validates the presence of a person and nothing returned proves it was returned by a man.  Lunar rovers have been around for a half century or more.  You can all the crap you like on the moon without ever sending men to unload it.  Prove that they can conduct the transit with less than a .25 mgy/day exposure and I will surrender and join the opposition.

[MBDK]

We know that the VAB is 37000 miles long

Along the geomagentic equator maybe, but as you have been told and shown repeatedly, the Apollo spacecraft did not take that route (indeed it was virtually impossible for it to do so due to the different inclinations ot the orbit and the geomagentic plane) so why do you think using the full thickness of the belt is valid?

Actually a good question.  I used it because we all know the VAB expansds thousands of miles during Solar max and not having any reference I thought it a fairly conservative estimate.

Jason with regard to this 37000 figure do you know of a 3d picture or chat which shows the 3d path the vehicles took to transverse the edges. I have seen many 2d's but not 3d

Ben here is the video

brill thanks for that

You like that? have another...

These animations make it clear how the worst of the VAB were avoided.

Unfortunately, they also demonstrate how TF is unable to fathom 3 dimensions.

ETA: I am wondering what TF will make of the contour lines?

Now if you rotate the geomagnetic equator 11.5 degrees to the north and slow the revolution down to something realistic then this would be an outstanding representation

Uhmmm...they ARE both aligned with the magnetic poles already.  Can't you even read a map?  Also, please answer my previous question regarding the proton shielding.

[Allan F]

ONEBIGMONKEY,  I am unaware of any proof of a manned landing.  If there was such evidence then why is there a debate.  Nothing seen validates the presence of a person and nothing returned proves it was returned by a man.  Lunar rovers have been around for a half century or more.  You can all the crap you like on the moon without ever sending men to unload it.  Prove that they can conduct the transit with less than a .25 mgy/day exposure and I will surrender and join the opposition.

There is no debate. There is only cranks denying the evidence. Because it conflicts with their sense of self-importance. The hoax believers have a need to possess "special" knowledge without the ability or the perserverence to actually obtain such special knowledge.

[Luke Pemberton]

Uhmmm...they ARE both aligned with the magnetic poles already.

Am I reading this correctly? Tim has suggested we have to realign the magnetic axis with respect to the van Allen belts to obtain the correct orbital path of the craft through the van Allen belts? Is this what Tim is claiming?