Author Topic: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch  (Read 203348 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #285 on: December 20, 2018, 11:21:30 PM »
Ah, the Goldilocks argument.  One describes how technology works and the other tells you how to use it.  But neither is "technical" in nature.  None of it is "just right."  Can we just assume that no matter what references, documents,or manuals are provided, you'll just claim none of it is "technical?"  The trove you referred us to, at ibiblio.org, is actually the trove amassed by the people who are rebuilding the Apollo guidance computer.  This seems to be enough for a group of enthusiastic outsiders to actually repair, rebuild, and operate the heart of the guidance system.  So by what standard is it not "technical" enough for you?

Also, have you been able to solve the equations in the memo you referred to for D1 and D2 such that the undocked LM is rendered unstable?  Or is that not "technical" enough?  You tried to tell us that single-jet maneuvers were absolutely required, that the jets had to be fired in pairs.  Have you found which of the several documents in your trove refer to the LM minimum-impulse steering modes?  Or is that not "technical" enough for you?  One of the documents in your trove is the post-flight evaluation of the DAP following Apollo 11.  It tends to contradict most of your claims.  Would you care to tell us which document that is?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #286 on: December 20, 2018, 11:33:30 PM »
I've been away form this site for a while and decided to come back tonight.  And look at what I found.  I'll jump in the fray. 

Hi ka9q,

The AOH manuals are descriptive and operational in nature and not designed to be technical in nature. (Hence the name Apollo Operations) Tells me what things are and how to use them, it gives very little insight into the actual background/understanding/proofs of the technical aspects. (I have had these too for years. )



For people that are adept at technology, operations and procedures manuals give a tremendous insight as to the underlying engineering. They are a great help when combed with even the physical hardware alone in understanding the how and why a machine works. Stop pulling out excuses.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline jr Knowing

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #287 on: December 20, 2018, 11:58:38 PM »
Hi Jay,

I am not quite sure what you mean when you say "You tried to tell us that single-jet maneuvers were absolutely required, that the jets had to be fired in pairs". I was saying they had to be fired in pairs to maintain stability.

In terms of post flight memos, are you talking about the one that makes the comment "apparently" (as if how was that possible?) with regards to the RCS engine use?

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #288 on: December 21, 2018, 12:14:32 AM »
Hi ka9q,

The AOH manuals are descriptive and operational in nature and not designed to be technical in nature. (Hence the name Apollo Operations) Tells me what things are and how to use them, it gives very little insight into the actual background/understanding/proofs of the technical aspects. (I have had these too for years. )
Actually, the subsystems volumes go into quite a bit of technical detail. Ready for your test?

Offline nomuse

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #289 on: December 21, 2018, 12:15:22 AM »
Ridiculous.

There is never going to be a document that explains exactly how you go about building a piece of aerospace hardware, because there is never going to be a case where Robinson Crusoe has to work it all out from a single book.

It would be like expecting house blueprints to include an explanation on how a framing hammer works.

The documents you find will be ones in which people experienced in a field -- with its standard methods, with its history -- can construct, analyze, and otherwise communicate intents and discoveries about devices and procedures.

That's why I make such a point about standard terminology. There won't be a paper that discusses the RCS in detail and the principles of fluid dynamics in detail. If there is something about the RCS that requires a full understanding of fluid dynamics in order to understand, standard terms outlining the parameters of that issue and -- if you are very lucky -- cites to the appropriate references is what you will find.

This is also why the idea of a hoax is so ludicrous. The effect Jay describes isn't kept in a special NASA book they can edit to their convenience. It is the same damned book used by people who are making things which you can sit in and go to LA with.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #290 on: December 21, 2018, 12:17:14 AM »
I was saying they had to be fired in pairs to maintain stability.

Yes, that's what you said.  And you're wrong.  And I'm asking you to reconcile your claim with the copious references to the minimum-impulse mode of the LM DAP that employs only a single thruster for control moments in the U-V control plane.  The documents specifically say this was a programmed mode of the Apollo guidance computer, an intentional method of orienting the spacecraft.

I'm also asking you to reconcile your claim that the memo you referred us to substantiates your belief that the LM would be less stable in solo flight than, as the memo descxribed, with the CSM docked, because of the plume deflectors.  The memo contains mathematics that cover all possible cases.  I'm asking you to solve the mathematics for LM solo flight and thus prove your case.

Despite examples of other people finding enough "technical" material to reverse engineer and duplicate significant aspects of Apollo technology -- operating hardware and faithful mechanical models -- you maintain that what's available is not "technical in nature."  You don't specify what you mean by "technical" in this context, but you insist that it is not covered by existing materials.  My questions are designed to determine how much of the existing materials you are familiar with.  You haven't given anyone any reason to accept your standard of sufficiency.  You can't even reconcile your own claims with your own presented sources, so I don't consider you a credible judge of (a) what is available and (b) the extent to which it can be used to test claims such as yours.

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In terms of post flight memos, are you talking about the one that makes the comment "apparently" (as if how was that possible?) with regards to the RCS engine use?

I'm asking you to give me the file name of the post-flight analysis of the Apollo 11 DAP from the site you gave us.  Can you do that?  Have you actually read any significant portion of the documents there?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #291 on: December 21, 2018, 12:39:19 AM »
There is never going to be a document that explains exactly...

We can skip to the end and stipulate that there will never be a document that fits Jr Knowing's constantly-moving and ill-defined criteria for being "technical in nature."  No matter what depth or detail we can provide, he can simply declare that it lacks some arbitrary property to make it suitable.  This is why it's important to reference the various efforts to reconstruct, reproduce, and recreate Apollo technology based on the available documents.  If there are people actually succeeding at things, it's hard for someone else to claim the resources aren't there to do it.

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The documents you find will be ones in which people experienced in a field -- with its standard methods, with its history -- can construct, analyze, and otherwise communicate intents and discoveries about devices and procedures.

Correct.  The memo we were presented with earlier presumes a pre-existing knowledge of free-body dynamics.  The mathematics it incorporated are straightforward and familiar to anyone who has knowledge of that field.  Jr Knowing's inability to reconcile his claim of what the memo says about LM dynamics and what the memo actually says in its mathematics reveals the lack of basis for any judgment he might make about its applicability or completeness.  He appears to have only layman's misconceptions about free-body dynamics.

Further, I have given him references to Bate's Fundamentals of Astrodynamics and Sidi's Spacecraft Dynamics and Control, two of the standard works, to fill in the gaps a layman would have in approaching many of the specific expressions in the Apollo record that deal with spacecraft stability and control.  None of the documents produced during actual engineering development of any product will provide introductory or remedial foundations in the sciences that precede it.  They're meant to communicate ideas between people who already know the foundational concepts.  In that respect, a layman might consider some document insufficient.

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This is also why the idea of a hoax is so ludicrous. The effect Jay describes isn't kept in a special NASA book they can edit to their convenience. It is the same damned book used by people who are making things which you can sit in and go to LA with.

Correct.  Free-body dynamics are the same thing taught to student pilots.  Two ailerons are optimal, but you can exert roll control with just one.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #292 on: December 21, 2018, 12:43:51 AM »
Actually, the subsystems volumes go into quite a bit of technical detail.

The Bellcomm library goes into excruciating detail.  But it exists only in print form, and you have to go to the National Air and Space Museum to use it.  This is not a problem, of course, for serious researchers or workers in the field.  But if someone doesn't want to be bothered to leave his armchair, then he will find his options somewhat limited.

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Ready for your test?

"Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer..."

Fun fact:  Douglas Rain passed away recently.  He told the story that -- true to reputation -- Stanley Kubrick made him do dozens of takes singing the song in different keys and tempos.  Then he used the first take.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #293 on: December 21, 2018, 02:06:04 AM »
 Yeah this is another variation of a well worn theme:

"I demand evidence that I believe doesn't exist"

"This evidence?"

"Erm...No...some other more narrowly defined evidence that doesn't prove me wrong"

"Oh...you mean this evidence then?"

"No..."

And so on in ever decreasing circles...

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #294 on: December 21, 2018, 03:08:06 AM »
I'm also asking you to reconcile your claim that the memo you referred us to substantiates your belief that the LM would be less stable in solo flight than, as the memo descxribed, with the CSM docked, because of the plume deflectors.  The memo contains mathematics that cover all possible cases.  I'm asking you to solve the mathematics for LM solo flight and thus prove your case.

As am I.

Let's be clear here: I am not an engineer. I am not an aerospace expert. I am a biochemist. However, I am more than capable of solving the simple equation M+X = 89D1 - 59D2 for the available ranges of D1 and D2 that will a) fit within the dimensions of the LM and b) result in the negative M+X that leads to a control instability for an automated attitude control system. It doesn't take an expert to understand that for M+X to be negative the statement (59 x D2) > (89 x D1) must be true, and that from that it follows that D2 must be significantly longer than D1. It is also obvious that this equation only yields a negative M+X in the case where the centre of gravity lies above the plane of the RCS system.

So, given the size of the LM and the position of the RCS quads, can you find any solution to that equation that produces a negative M+X in the undocked LM? This is the mathematics of the situation you are insisting makes the LM potentially unstable in solo flight. All we are asking you to do is reconcile that statement with the mathematics in the paper that you presented as evidence of your assertion. Since you believe this memo to be evidence of your claim you must be able to do this, yes?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 05:02:28 AM by Jason Thompson »
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #295 on: December 21, 2018, 03:22:35 AM »
Anyone who wants to understand the basis of the paper presented here might do well to look up who the author of the paper is, and what 'Luminary' is in the context of Apollo. It kind of fits in with where that paper was sourced.

Just a hint there.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #296 on: December 21, 2018, 08:25:03 AM »
The Bellcomm library goes into excruciating detail.

I was unfamiliar with that so I looked it up.  The online index has a very nice listing of all the NASA launches and tests from the first Mercury escape test to A17 with a short note for the result for many of them.  It also states the way to access the archive. 

https://sova.si.edu/record/NASM.XXXX.0093#Project%20Mercury%20Launches

A few minutes of browsing this morning led me to references to all sorts of memos detaining small instances that occured in the broad program to reach the moon.  Anyone want to know about:

"A" Camera Noise Spike and Transponder Power Output Drop During Ranger 8 Midcourse Maneuver : teletype to N.W. Cunningham, NASA, 1965 Mar 10 from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory Library and Archives. 

The level of detail contained in the various archives about the broad moon landing program is unprecedented in history.

jr Knowing, if you are concerned about why people might view you as a crackpot; it is your certainty that you have found something that no one else noticed combined with an abysmal absence of knowledge about the information that is available about the topic that causes others to question the reasons for your persistence that there is a problem.   

People here are not "suspicious and paranoid" just knowledgeable and experienced.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 08:47:41 AM by Echnaton »
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #297 on: December 21, 2018, 08:28:20 AM »
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #298 on: December 21, 2018, 08:52:42 AM »
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

Touché :D
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #299 on: December 21, 2018, 09:34:24 AM »
Yeah this is another variation of a well worn theme:
[...]
And so on in ever decreasing circles...

Indeed.  No matter what document is produced, it will lack some property that the claimant will have newly decided is essential to understanding the Apollo program fully and answering all the questions of authenticity that a critic could possibly conceive.  This is why, for the time being, I'm sticking to the documents at the one site our claimant has identified.  We all know other sources exist.  All his concerns so far regarding the RCS can be answered from documents residing there.  If he is unable to find them or interpret them, then we will have our answer to the question of whether his standards of documentation are rationally informed.

However, I am more than capable of solving the simple equation M+X = 89D1 - 59D2 for the available ranges of D1 and D2 that will a) fit within the dimensions of the LM and b) result in the negative M+X that leads to a control instability for an automated attitude control system.

When I said the author wrote the memo with the presumption that the reader would understand free-body dynamics, that wasn't strictly true.  The author has given a simple, correct equation that governs one particular issue of a highly eccentric mass distribution, such as would occur when the LM is docked to a heavy-laden CSM.  It takes knowledge of free-body dynamics to know why that equation governs the issue.  But to solve the  equation for different mass properties requires only a teenager's understanding of algebra and geometry.  This is what we're asking Jr Knowing to do.  His claim that the plume deflectors made the LM less stable under solo flight than with the CSM attached is soundly refuted from his own sources.  If he cannot explain why or why not, then we have no obligation to respect his judgment of technical content or applicability.  The longer he stalls or tries to change the subject, the more apparent it is he's bluffing.

Even the free-body dynamics aren't rocket science.  The equation we're talking about is a simple torque calculation.  Rather, it derives straightforwardly from the definition of torque itself -- a specific force acting perpendicular on an arm of specific distance.  Even the most innumerate of humans probably knows how a cheater bar works, or simply that it works.  If you've got Cletus pulling on a wrench in one direction, and his son Bubba pulling the other way on a long cheater bar attached to the wrench, the cheater bar can become so long that Bubba's weaker pull oustrips Cletus pulling harder on a shorter moment arm.

The level of detail contained in the various archives about the broad moon landing program is unprecedented in history.

Yes, when we say that Apollo was the most meticulously documented civil engineering project ever in history, this is what we mean.

One of the sources at the ibiblio.org archive goes into some detail about how the plume deflectors were built, including materials, measurements, and finished assembly diagrams.  It goes right down to the level of how the films were attached to the Inconel substrate, and what tests were done to assure its mechanical and thermal properties.  If I needed to restore an LM to flight condition, i believe I have enough information to get the plume deflectors right.

Similarly, the memos with file names starting with COL and LUM describe the day-to-day revisions of the software and the results of validation tests.  Some of them were written by the illustrious "M. Hamilton," who (I believe) was presented a few years ago with the Presidential Medal of Freedom for her career efforts.  Many here who work in modern information technology will recognize the pattern if not the actual technical content of the memos.  They transmit to the Apollo distribution network the revisions to the software and the results of testing them.  Such information is what today would be curated in source-code repositories and defect-tracking tools.  The bottom line is that to have any greater technical knowledge than what was documented in those memos, one would need to have been an engineer working on the project at the time, because the only significant information lacking from the available body of documentation is what would have been discussed around the water cooler.

And these days the entire source code for Colossus (CSM) and Luminary (LM) is up on Github.  So we do have a context for investigating the content of those updates.

If the documentation that exists is sufficient to enable someone skilled in the field to reproduce it, it's extremely difficult to argue that "technical" detail is lacking.  As Onebigmonkey notes, it then devolves into an exercise of rapidly moving and rapidly narrowing goalposts.  The endgame is usually as absurd as claiming that if you can't tell me the surface finish of the screws that held the FDAI in the LM cockpit, then we can't know enough to know that Apollo wasn't fake.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams