Author Topic: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch  (Read 203374 times)

Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #300 on: December 21, 2018, 10:53:56 AM »
Yeah this is another variation of a well worn theme:
[...]
And so on in ever decreasing circles...

Indeed.  No matter what document is produced, it will lack some property that the claimant will have newly decided is essential to understanding the Apollo program fully and answering all the questions of authenticity that a critic could possibly conceive.  This is why, for the time being, I'm sticking to the documents at the one site our claimant has identified.  We all know other sources exist.  All his concerns so far regarding the RCS can be answered from documents residing there.  If he is unable to find them or interpret them, then we will have our answer to the question of whether his standards of documentation are rationally informed.

...

This sounds an awful inability to understand the documents that led up to usefulness of the PSS, to Baker.  Although jr hasn't mentioned that piece of equipment.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #301 on: December 21, 2018, 11:50:21 AM »
Believe it or not, I just realized who you are and your background. That now helps explain why you and others are so suspicious and paranoid.

... or just very knowledgeable given the background of each of the individuals that frequent these boards.

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Call me naïve

OK, you're naive.


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I did not know I was walking into a hornets nest.

You should have dipped a toe first. Maybe read a few of the old topics, then you would have realised the expertise here.

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I didn't walk in here to stir things up.

Spare us, please.

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I would like to thank OneBigMonkey (I also just realized I have been on his website too) for actually responding to my questions unlike almost everyone else. I will use another post to respond to your posts. And hopefully we can get back on track.

In that case can you respond to my question? Why do think the US hoaxed the moon landings? What exactly made the landings prohibitive?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #302 on: December 21, 2018, 12:04:14 PM »
Actually, the subsystems volumes go into quite a bit of technical detail.

And how.  Earlier I was sort of handwaving the RCS control logic, because the detail is tedious and hard to convey accurately in text alone.  The operations handbooks have the actual circuit diagrams, for Finagle's sake.  I should stress that I could build the Apollo RCS control logic using only the information in that source, and from general expertise in aerospace-type control systems (i.e., what voltages apply, what component ratings, etc.).  This is adequate technical documentation.  Full technical documentation beyond that would specify only things that could be reliably inferred by someone skilled in the art.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 12:13:43 PM by JayUtah »
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Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #303 on: December 21, 2018, 12:16:44 PM »
Actually, the subsystems volumes go into quite a bit of technical detail.

And how.  Earlier I was sort of handwaving the RCS control logic, because the detail is tedious and hard to convey accurately in text alone.  The operations handbooks have the actual circuit diagrams, for Finagle's sake.  I should stress that I could build the Apollo RCS control logic using only the information in that source, and from general expertise in aerospace-type control systems (i.e., what voltages apply, what component ratings, etc.).  This is adequate technical documentation.  Full technical documentation beyond that would specify only things that could be reliably inferred by someone skilled in the art.

Now that you have the circuits, could you employ 3-D printing to build the actual nozzle(s)?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #304 on: December 21, 2018, 01:02:07 PM »
Now that you have the circuits, could you employ 3-D printing to build the actual nozzle(s)?

I wouldn't need the circuit diagrams to do that.  There's no circuitry to speak of in the actual RCS motors.  They operate by solenoid valves, and require only 28 VDC to energize them on.  If you've seen the jets themselves, the cable lead is skinny and has only a half-inch Bendix connector.  The circuit diagrams are for the control modules that sit between the computer (and the rest of the control instrumentation, such as the SM SEP/JETT switch in the CSM) and the jets.  Yes, a skilled aerospace fabricator, with no special knowledge of space flight or of the command, service, or lunar modules, could build a working breadboard of any of the RCS systems using only the information from the operations handbooks.  The handbooks are that complete.

To the separate question of whether I could fabricate a new RCS motor of the Marquardt 6-something (the actual model/part number escapes me) type using 3D-printing technology, the answer is a little involved.

The solenoid valves are bolt-on assemblies.  I'd have to go check the label to see if Marquardt even made them themselves.  I think they did.  There's nothing inherently remarkable about the valves.  If you've installed a sprinkler system you know what those are.  The ones Marquardt used are just engineered to a higher standard of reliability, but don't work materially different than any of the zillions of other kinds of solenoid valves you can find.  The thrust chambers were machined from molybdenum and then coated with a molybdenum oxide or alloy (I forget which) to protect them from environment effects and the effects of the corrosive propellants.  Molybdenum is a tough metal.  I have a molybdenum wrench set (non-ferrous metals are sometimes used to make tools where magnetic effects would be hazardous).  It would hurt a lot if I threw one of those at you.  The nozzles are machined from cobalt, with integral stiffeners (those ribs).  That metal was chosen for its combination of mechanical and thermal properties.

Could these be fabricated today with additive manufacturing techniques?  Yes.  Not with your home 3D-printer, of course, since the plastics those use wouldn't be suitable.  But suitable metals -- including cobalt-based alloys -- are already candidates for additive methods.  The most "exciting" (i.e., expensive) methods have fine control over deposition and can achieve a variety of crystalline and grain structures and cooling rates.  You'd still have to coat the thrust chamber after fabrication, using ordinary deposition methods, but you could certainly produce the substrate.  And since polymer gaskets don't work well in the presence of the propellants, you might need a finish step on the interface between the thrust chamber and the solenoid valve -- the injector assembly.

This sort of brings up the plume deflectors again.  Prior to them, the driving constraint on RCS duty cycles was the thermal effects of impingement.  With the +X thrusters guarded by deflectors, the driving constraint became the motors themselves, including such things as throat erosion.  This is why all the modes except maximum-impulse alternated which thrusters would be employed to achieve the lesser impulses.  They didn't want the same jets being used all the time, since throat erosion lessens thrust.  They wanted that effect to occur equally over all the related jets.  There is a whole universe of control practice out there that flies (pun intended, I guess) directly in the face of Jr Knowing's insistence that it all has to work perfectly or else the LM becomes unflyably unstable.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #305 on: December 21, 2018, 02:36:36 PM »
Now that you have the circuits, could you employ 3-D printing to build the actual nozzle(s)?
Not quite the same, but SpaceX has been 3D printing valves and nozzles for a number of years now. The nozzles for the SuperSraco engine is a printed object, complete with cooling chambers.
Rocket Lab have flown an engine with 3D printed parts in 2017.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #306 on: December 21, 2018, 03:03:23 PM »
Parts with difficult cavities have always been difficult to obtain by subtractive or composite means.  The F-1 nozzles were built up from the individual tubes and furnace-brazed into a single piece.  The reject rate was very hight.  Ducted impellers such as for propellant pumps were another nightmare to make from traditional machining techniques.  They were extremely difficult to machine even with 5-axis numerically-controlled mills.  Those impellers have to be built to extremely precise tolerances, and out of extremely robust materials.  Additive manufacturing has transformed aerospace.  And this is why we don't built stuff the same way we designed it in the 1960s.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #307 on: December 21, 2018, 03:17:02 PM »
Parts with difficult cavities have always been difficult to obtain by subtractive or composite means.  The F-1 nozzles were built up from the individual tubes and furnace-brazed into a single piece.  The reject rate was very hight.  Ducted impellers such as for propellant pumps were another nightmare to make from traditional machining techniques.  They were extremely difficult to machine even with 5-axis numerically-controlled mills.  Those impellers have to be built to extremely precise tolerances, and out of extremely robust materials.  Additive manufacturing has transformed aerospace.  And this is why we don't built stuff the same way we designed it in the 1960s.

Absolutely. The whole "the blueprints were lost therefore we couldn't do it again" schtick is such nonsense. Technology, materials knowledge, maching and fabrication techniques have changed so much in the intervening 60 years that no-one in their right mind would build a rocket in the same way that the Saturns of F-1s were built.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2013/04/how-nasa-brought-the-monstrous-f-1-moon-rocket-back-to-life/2/
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #308 on: December 21, 2018, 03:35:47 PM »
"Blueprints" are a different matter.  During the height of LM design, Grumman was producing 4,000 drawings per week.  Not all of these would be needed to validate the design.  You can, for example, dispense with detailed assembly drawings and manufacturing-step drawings.  You need these if you are going to tell the manufacturing division how to fabricate it.  But you don't need to fabricate it in order to understand how it works.  Each LM shipped with a literal boxcar of design, manufacturing, and test data.  This is largely a legal requirement for suppling equipment to a customer.  It isn't an engineering requirement in order to comprehend its design and operation.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #309 on: December 21, 2018, 04:09:54 PM »
But to solve the  equation for different mass properties requires only a teenager's understanding of algebra and geometry.

In some ways it's even more basic than that. I hesitate to say it because we often upbraid HBs for similar aguments, but here we have a ituation where, given that equation, you can in fact just look at the LM and understand why solo flight will not lead to the kind of instability described.

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This is what we're asking Jr Knowing to do.

Yes, I await eagerly his application of the simple mathematics.

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His claim that the plume deflectors made the LM less stable under solo flight than with the CSM attached is soundly refuted from his own sources

Just wanted to repeat that with the emphasis added, because it really is a fundamental problem with his entire argument.

Furthermore, in an earlier post he claimed we can 'dumb down' the questions to really basic ones. Here's a case where the answer is as basic as it can be. The equation is simple and there is even a simple hand-drawn diagram to illustrate it. And yet, he still fails to correctly interpret it.
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Even the most innumerate of humans probably knows how a cheater bar works, or simply that it works.  If you've got Cletus pulling on a wrench in one direction, and his son Bubba pulling the other way on a long cheater bar attached to the wrench, the cheater bar can become so long that Bubba's weaker pull oustrips Cletus pulling harder on a shorter moment arm.

I think part of the problem is people are familiar with the situation to the point they don't even think of it in technical terms, so when we introduce technical temrinology into the conversation we get accused of obfuscation and trying to 'blind wth science'. However, that does not make the argument any less valid.
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Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #310 on: December 21, 2018, 04:18:36 PM »
Hi jfb,

I think you are confused by the Apollo News Reference. I have had this for years. Its not a technical manual. It is PR written, for the most part, in layman terms to explain things to the public. (The manual even states that) You can't build anything with this. Instructions for Ikea products are even better than this. (which isn't saying much) This perfectly illustrates the misconception out there regarding the "wealth of information" that people think is out there explaining the principles and details of the various Apollo systems and devices.
And now you are trolling.

If you had read as much as you claim then you would, for example, be aware that you can build and program your very own AGC. All the specs are there. People do it as a hobby. Right down to 1960's components even though modern components would make it a breeze.

Guess what? It works as advertised.

The very same applies to any other such subsystem. If you are sufficiently motivated, the data is there so that you could build one in your garage.

The simple fact that you claim it isn't demonstrates a very limited set of possible conclusions one can draw. None of them are pretty. 

Offline jr Knowing

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #311 on: December 21, 2018, 04:22:34 PM »
Hi Everyone,

I think all you guys make some reasonable points. But, if 50 years later, we are left to reverse engineer most things there is something wrong. It is absolutely troubling that the technical insights for many things are lacking. I would love to see, for instance, the technical workings/insights of how the PLSS/spacesuit functions, ie battery components, environment systems, breathing systems (a re-circulating CO-2 scrubber ?) and the how the suit remains a closed environment. All these aspects have huge applicable uses for us today. Just understanding how the materials/components worked to create that durable battery that was able to operate in 1969 would be invaluable. And understanding how the suit remained a closed environment with no less than 7 seal points would also be very helpful given many of these seal points were with zippers. It is truly remarkable that not one astronaut has not perished from exposure to a vacuum over the years. Just to illustrate how dangerous a vacuum is here is someone (idiot) testing a vacuum on his body. 

If that wasn't enough, here is only documented astronaut attempting to use a space suit in a vacuum chamber prior to the Apollo missions. He does a face plant within 10 seconds because of just one loose tube. He is extremely lucky to have survived. 

NASA even had trouble building vacuum chambers because of the damage the vacuum created on doors (seals) yet these suits with their zipper seals (and velcro) seemed to have posed no problems. (I believe A7 didn't even use seals for their boots) How do we reconcile all this? We are not provided with the technical data behind the technology. Further, how do we reconcile the behavior of some of the astronauts on the moon with the dangers of the vacuum? They are one small tear or puncture away from certain disaster yet the way they act at times you would think they are playing football in a park. Look at this video from Apollo 17. It doesn't appear they even have the slightest concern about the vacuum. Check between 1:44 and 1:48:30, Cernan (or Schimitt?) completely destroys an experiment and decides to use his body as a hammer. 1:45:50 is classic. (also note how he seems to levitate at times in these three minutes) Is this remotely how a person would operate in a vacuum knowing death is a small puncture away? 

In any event, I think people are only fooling themselves that all this technology is explainable with scientific verification. People I think rely as much on belief and faith, then a solid technical foundation that this technology operated as advertised. I know others disagree but that is what I think. Again no biggie if you disagree. I respect and acknowledge you have valid points.

Offline jr Knowing

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #312 on: December 21, 2018, 04:24:52 PM »
Sorry, here is the Apollo 17 video. Check between 1:44 and 1:48:30   

Offline jr Knowing

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #313 on: December 21, 2018, 04:27:29 PM »
Sorry again, here is the Apollo 17 video. Check between 1:44 and 1:48:30 

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #314 on: December 21, 2018, 04:33:44 PM »
I think all you guys make some reasonable points.

Then why are you trying to change the subject?  Again.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams