Author Topic: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery  (Read 119623 times)

Offline Derek K Willis

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2019, 05:33:11 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

I presume that this is the same guy?
http://conspiracywiki.com/author/conspiracy/

If so, then a bad case* of crank magnetism. We've nearly got the full house of crank "theories".....NWO, European federal super-state, the Bilderburg Group, HAARP mind-control...we're just missing some lizard eyeball-licking. ::)



*Is there any other kind?

Your presumption is wrong. The blog you linked to has nothing whatsoever to do with me. A member of Unexplained Mysteries had exactly the same reaction as you, which was how my attention was drawn to the blog. It seems the blog appeared last year, sometime after I had published my first article. Perhaps it is a coincidence that the blogger has the same name as me, or perhaps it is an attempt to discredit me. Your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps it is related to the emails I received from NASA in response to emails I had never sent. Or to some of the other strange things that have happened since I began to question the orthodox account of Apollo. Again, your guess is as good as mine.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2019, 05:43:58 PM »
Right, so the truth comes out. Derek is just a run-o-the-mill hoaxtard after all. Well, colour me surprised!

Even if it was possible to build a big-arse vacuum chamber; big enough to house a couple of square km of lunar landscape; big enough so that the inverse square law would not be detectable when the scene is lit, it would still be impossible fake the lunar EVA on earth because of two things

1. The 1/6th gravity.
Even now, it is still impossible to fake low-gravity environments such as the Lunar and Martian surface without extensive and expensive CGI (which had not even been invested yet in 1969). This why movie makers either utterly fail to get it right (Apollo 18, Moon, Apollo 13) or they do not even attempt to do so (The Martian, 2001).

2. The video technology did not exist in 1969
I could launch into a long treatise on how storing 2½ hours of uninterrupted LIVE video for later playback could not even remotely be done in any way that fakery would not be spotted by anyone with a basic understanding of cinematography, but I won't. Instead, I will leave that to an actual expert in cinematography, Mr S.G Collins...



 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 05:46:27 PM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2019, 06:40:56 PM »

Your presumption is wrong. The blog you linked to has nothing whatsoever to do with me.

That's fair enough. Thanks for the correction.

I wouldn't be concerned about someone trying to discredit you....you appear to be doing a more than adequate job by yourself. ;)
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #138 on: June 03, 2019, 07:26:12 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

I presume that this is the same guy?
http://conspiracywiki.com/author/conspiracy/

If so, then a bad case* of crank magnetism. We've nearly got the full house of crank "theories".....NWO, European federal super-state, the Bilderburg Group, HAARP mind-control...we're just missing some lizard eyeball-licking. ::)



*Is there any other kind?

Your presumption is wrong. The blog you linked to has nothing whatsoever to do with me. A member of Unexplained Mysteries had exactly the same reaction as you, which was how my attention was drawn to the blog. It seems the blog appeared last year, sometime after I had published my first article. Perhaps it is a coincidence that the blogger has the same name as me, or perhaps it is an attempt to discredit me. Your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps it is related to the emails I received from NASA in response to emails I had never sent. Or to some of the other strange things that have happened since I began to question the orthodox account of Apollo. Again, your guess is as good as mine.
But your guess is not the equal of informed scientific conclusions. And it never will be.

ETA: Got anything to say about the transcripts I gave you? Is Santa real?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 07:27:57 PM by Abaddon »

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #139 on: June 03, 2019, 07:49:16 PM »
So I wandered over to UM to see what Derek was posting there.

WT actual F?

Derek insists that his interlocutors MUST provide numbers, maths and physics while he has no such counter obligation.

So right back on you Derek. Where are YOUR numbers, physics and maths?

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #140 on: June 03, 2019, 08:28:10 PM »
Derek insists that his interlocutors MUST provide numbers, maths and physics while he has no such counter obligation.

Fairly common ploy.  The claimant tries to suggest that the only rebuttals that are dispositive of his claim are those that critics are either unqualified to produce or unwilling to take an extreme effort to produce.  This doesn't have to be scientific knowledge.  The "reasonable" (but impractical) rebuttal can also, for example, require distant travel or considerable expense.  Common inducements include, as we've seen here, appeals to flattery:  "I heard you guys were really smart and professional."  One can also attempt less directed but equally persuasive options, e.g., "How can you be so sure of your objection unless you've done the required work?"

Obviously when the claimant provides no substance on its own, this amounts to reversing the burden of proof.  It advances the hidden premise that any objection a critic has is presumed to be ill-founded.  It's a close cousin of the ignoratio elenchi fallacy to suggest that only one of several possible refutations is allowed.  If, hypothetically, a claimant simultaneously commits an error of inference and also supplies a speculative premise, either one is fatal to his claim.  He doesn't get to escape that by demanding an exhaustive refutation of the premise when the claim fails much more easily and straightforwardly by a faulty inferential structure.  Further, on the off-chance that a critic supplies a detailed technical proof, such proofs often provide enough crevices and toeholds for a persistent claimant to keep up the demand, handwavingly insisting that more and more rigor be supplied regardless of its ability to affect the outcome.  That's why the simplest rebuttals are also the best rebuttals, regardless of what the claimant prefers.  Finally, it's hard to imagine what someone is supposed to do with a detailed scientific treatise in fields he has already said he isn't an expert in.  If the core problem is that the claimant doesn't understand fluid dynamics, providing an exhaustively considered analysis in fluid dynamics won't fix that.  Demanding explanations one can't actually use rather tips the hand to show it's just a rhetorical ploy instead of a genuine request.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #141 on: June 03, 2019, 08:29:00 PM »
Alright Derek. I just endured reading one of your threads on UM end to end. Either you are lying to them or you are lying to us. Which is it? And it could be both. But it can't be neither. Your statements there and here are irreconcilable.

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #142 on: June 03, 2019, 09:07:18 PM »
Derek insists that his interlocutors MUST provide numbers, maths and physics while he has no such counter obligation.

Fairly common ploy.
I know that. You know that. All of us know that. But the cranks somehow think we have never before encountered such a tactic and that it is somehow novel. Why is that?

To paraphrase McCoy, "Dammit Jay, I am an engineer not a gullible fool."

Derek seems to be operating on the basis that the only person who is not fooled is him because he is somehow exceptional and immune to being fooled.

Anyway, in the spirit of investigation, I went to UM to see what exactly he was on about. He is either lying to us or he is lying to them. Possibly both.

Credibility is not a boomerang. If you chuck it away, it ain't coming back.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #143 on: June 03, 2019, 09:28:40 PM »
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you chuck it away, it ain't coming back.

Unashamedly stolen for future use!
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #144 on: June 04, 2019, 01:27:54 AM »
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you chuck it away, it ain't coming back.

Unashamedly stolen for future use!
Feel free. I unashamedly swiped it from somebody else years ago.

ETA: I am not sure, but it might well have been Jay. I don't recall.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 01:40:19 AM by Abaddon »

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #145 on: June 04, 2019, 02:53:07 AM »
Have we dealt with the completely false claim yet that Conrad's "300 feet" claim was revised by the ALSJ? I confess to not having read every reply.

Other people have pointed out I know that the redrafting relates to the diagram used on that page, but the figure that was quoted is nothing to do with when Conrad saw dust but rather when he stopped forward motion. In other words this text:

Quote
As soon as I got the vehicle stopped in horizontal velocity at 300 feet (redrafted by Thomas Schwagmeier: The Apollo 12 Mission Report indicates that he stopped almost all of his forward motion at about 220 feet), we picked up a tremendous amount of dust ─ much more than I had expected.

is not the same as this:

Quote
Pete Conrad twice said he had first seen dust from an altitude of 300 feet (90 metres). This, however, was redrafted by Thomas Schwagmeier ─ one of the compilers of the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal ─ to 220 feet.

Derek's interpretation of the text is therefore completely incorrect.

Conrad was wrong in recalling that he stopped forward motion at 300', as can be seen from the 16mm footage. That is what was corrected by the ALSJ, not his statement about when he saw dust. Those statements are in the technical debrief, not the mission report.

Conrad recalled seeing dust when he stopped forward motion, so as he was mistaken about when that happened he is also mistaken about when he saw dust.

Neither of these things preclude there actually being dust before he saw it or before the 16mm footage captures it at 120'.

Offline Derek K Willis

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #146 on: June 04, 2019, 03:33:32 AM »
Alright Derek. I just endured reading one of your threads on UM end to end. Either you are lying to them or you are lying to us. Which is it? And it could be both. But it can't be neither. Your statements there and here are irreconcilable.

Which thread are you referring to?

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #147 on: June 04, 2019, 05:55:53 AM »
Quote
As soon as I got the vehicle stopped in horizontal velocity at 300 feet (redrafted by Thomas Schwagmeier: The Apollo 12 Mission Report indicates that he stopped almost all of his forward motion at about 220 feet), we picked up a tremendous amount of dust ─ much more than I had expected.

is not the same as this:

Quote
Pete Conrad twice said he had first seen dust from an altitude of 300 feet (90 metres). This, however, was redrafted by Thomas Schwagmeier ─ one of the compilers of the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal ─ to 220 feet.

Derek's interpretation of the text is therefore completely incorrect.

Conrad was wrong in recalling that he stopped forward motion at 300', as can be seen from the 16mm footage. That is what was corrected by the ALSJ, not his statement about when he saw dust. Those statements are in the technical debrief, not the mission report.

Conrad recalled seeing dust when he stopped forward motion, so as he was mistaken about when that happened he is also mistaken about when he saw dust.

Neither of these things preclude there actually being dust before he saw it or before the 16mm footage captures it at 120'.


Right, so in actual fact, the sequence goes something like this

1. Pete Conrad said he had first seen dust from an altitude of 300 feet when the LM stopped forward motion.

2. Thomas Schwagmeier redrafted this because the 16mm film showed that the LM actually stopped forward motion at 220 feet.

3. Derek K. Willis reinterpreted all this because those facts didn't fit the false narrative he wanted to push.

If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #148 on: June 04, 2019, 06:16:07 AM »
2. Thomas Schwagmeier redrafted this because the 16mm film showed that the LM actually stopped forward motion at 220 feet.

I don't even think that's what the 'redrafted' meant at all. Schwagmeier didn't redraft any statement, he redrafted the chart of altitude and forward velocity that was published in the report to better present it in the ALSJ. The problem is Derek is taking 'redrafted' to mean 'changed'. Nothing is changed. Conrad's statement about 300 feet is intact, the chart showing the forward velocity stopping at 220 feet is intact. The 'redrafting' refers only to the fact that Schwagmeier re-drew the chart in a software package rather than adding the PDF scan of the original. If you look at the chart on the ALSJ and the one in the mission report, you can see they are identical in terms of what they show.

3. Derek K. Willis reinterpreted all this because those facts didn't fit the false narrative he wanted to push.
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Offline Von_Smith

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #149 on: June 04, 2019, 06:30:47 AM »

Like I have said, I was asked by members of Unexplained Mysteries who are also members of this site if I would join.

As far as I am concerned I have made my case in the article. If you are not happy then use whatever means you wish to counter my claims and refute my case.

You obviously have a different notion than I do of what it means to make a case.  You have not given me one good reason to believe your claim that Apollo 12 was faked, as opposed to being real.

In particular, as I pointed out, your proposal does not, in fact, make sense of the evidence it purports to explain.  See below.

Quote
To answer your question regarding the astronauts and Mission Control not being on the same page. Very few people - including most of the people at Mission Control - knew the missions were faked.

This doesn't answer my concern.  You mention that the astronauts were surprised by the amount of dust they found on Surveyor, whereas mission control had expected it.  That's backwards from what one would expect for a fake:  it is the astronauts who should have been in the know.  It was they, after all, who had read the script and seen the props ahead of time.  Nothing would have surprised them, because they would have rehearsed everything to a tee before the mission started, including their reports of how much dust they found on Surveyor.  And your hypothesis needs the astronauts' expectation to be genuine, because otherwise there's no relevant discrepancy.