Author Topic: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?  (Read 128780 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #150 on: October 15, 2012, 11:56:05 AM »
It's an old, tired spin on an old, tired question.  A conspiracy theorist tries to argue that an artist's depiction must some how be taken at face value in all its particulars because it appears on a site NASA controls, "therefore" NASA has approved it for every purpose anyone can possibly imagine.  Every single painting, network TV visualization, and drawing that has appeared in some NASA publication has been dragged out and touted as "impossible, yet NASA-approved" by someone trying to trump up new charges to get attention.  I really weep for the species if this is the best the the conspiracy theorists can come up with.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Tedward

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #151 on: October 15, 2012, 12:11:32 PM »
I keep looking but never able to see a giant eagle with some greenery near the Moon.

Offline sts60

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #152 on: October 15, 2012, 12:14:09 PM »
Edward, in no historical record, especially in interviews and items designed for general consumption, will there ever be perfect consistency. 

The fact is that Apollo astronauts have noted that they could see stars with ease when in the umbra of the Moon, and with some difficulty (due to sunlight reflecting off the docked LM, or directly in through windows) during translunar and trans-Earth coast. 

It is also a fact that the crews could generally not see stars from their suits on the lunar surface, due to the difficulty in avoiding all reflected sunlight.  Armstrong and Aldrin certainly didn't have time to try it on their trip to the Moon, although they could see stars through the LM's optics (which could avoid stray sunlight).

Also, one of the crewmen on the later missions - Edward Mitchell? - someone will correct me - did go to the trouble of finding a large shadow to lurk in, and managed to block off enough light to view the stars directly.  But in fact, the stars even at lunar night are not overwhelmingly better than from a good dark-sky site on Earth; our atmosphere attenuates only about 15% (IIRC) of the visible.

I hope that resolves your issue.

Edit to add: I went back and re-read your message.  Simply put, the stars would be equally visible, or not visible, from an airless Earth, depending on the lighting conditions.  With no atmosphere at noon, you'd have the same challenges of avoiding stray sunlight.  The APOD picture doesn't change this; it's just a picture for popularization of science.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 12:18:16 PM by sts60 »

Offline Andromeda

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #153 on: October 15, 2012, 12:33:23 PM »
Jason Thompson owes me a fiver.

He paid up!  ;D
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline LunarOrbit

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LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #154 on: October 15, 2012, 01:12:19 PM »
Edward,

We're not going to do relay posting through middlemen. If you have something to say to us then post it directly into the forum, not in private messages.

If you do it again I will disable your ability to send private messages.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline gillianren

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #155 on: October 15, 2012, 01:15:07 PM »
I think we can all agree that the question wasn't worth the drama.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline sts60

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #156 on: October 15, 2012, 01:40:04 PM »
Well, metadiscussion aside, I'm kind of disappointed by Edward's monograph.   I thought there'd be something more substantive and not so... picked-over.

Edward, do you understand that the astronauts used optics for star sightings that were specifically designed to shield from stray light? 

Do you understand that a sky can described as "black" whether or not stars are visible?  If I stand under a bright light at the top of a tall mountain and look up at the midnight sky, I will describe it as "black".  I will also describe it as "black" if I step away from the light and give my eyes time to adjust so I can see the stars.

Do you understand that NASA is not a monolithic entity, and that everything hosted under the nasa.gov domain isn't approved by some sort of central authority?   Good grief, there are even a rew racy photos (in a strictly documentary context, of course) to be found at one well-known site hosted by NASA.

Also, how exactly does this fit into a "hoax" narrative?  A popular-science representation for the public contradicts (through oversimplification) a summary-level quote and another recreation for the public.  How does that translate into a hoax, or even some sort of deliberate misrepresentation, rather than normal variance in how a complex scenario is represented?   How does this stack up against the staggeringly vast Apollo technical, scientific, and programmatic record?


[Edit: fixed typo]
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 02:11:30 PM by sts60 »

Offline cos

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #157 on: October 15, 2012, 01:56:37 PM »
It seems the expectation is that they should have reported one thing or the other, you can either see stars in cislunar space or you can't and any other answer is deemed prima face evidence of fraud. 

What is it about light adaption of the human eye that HBs don't understand? Unless you're blind, you have eyes and can easily experience the effect. I haven't seen a single contradictory report from an astronaut (unless you willfully ignore context and insist that only your interpretation is correct, a favourite HB tactic).

Offline JayUtah

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #158 on: October 15, 2012, 02:02:15 PM »
I think we can all agree that the question wasn't worth the drama.

Indeed.  I expected more than the most banal of hoax claims dressed up in an unoriginal and thoroughly amusing line of reasoning.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Rob260259

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #159 on: October 15, 2012, 02:03:43 PM »
Edward,

We're not going to do relay posting through middlemen. If you have something to say to us then post it directly into the forum, not in private messages.

If you do it again I will disable your ability to send private messages.

My first and last relay LO.
 

Offline frenat

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #160 on: October 15, 2012, 02:04:38 PM »
I think we can all agree that the question wasn't worth the drama.

Have any HB questions EVER been worth the drama?
-Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension.
 -Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #161 on: October 15, 2012, 02:29:00 PM »
I think we can all agree that the question wasn't worth the drama.
Edwards point seems to have been the drama. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline gillianren

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #162 on: October 15, 2012, 02:42:09 PM »
Good grief, there are even a rew racy photos (in a strictly documentary context, of course) to be found at one well-known site hosted by NASA.

Wait, there are?

And, yeah, hoax belief is never worth drama.  But this was a new low in drama.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline smartcooky

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2012, 02:44:25 PM »
Well I think we can all agree that the people who inhabit this forum are a good deal smarter than wherever Edward had his experience with the "disappearing" poster.

Rather than run and hide, they have answered his question in a timely and efficient manner.
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline sts60

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2012, 02:59:17 PM »
Good grief, there are even a rew racy photos (in a strictly documentary context, of course) to be found at one well-known site hosted by NASA.
Wait, there are?
See, that's how we know you really are a gal and not a guy pretending to be a gal.

A guy, whether Apollo fan or hoax believer, would immediately ask, "Where?"