Author Topic: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked  (Read 55784 times)

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #645 on: January 07, 2025, 12:01:54 PM »
To land this LM, it had to maintain balance from 3000 mph 90 deg horizontal to 0 mph upright.

How many more times: Rockets. Do. Not. Balance. On. Thrust. This has been known for a very long time.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #646 on: January 07, 2025, 12:09:38 PM »
Result: Combined COM for the LM on landing was at least 2.4' ABOVE the center of Thrust.

And?

The centre of mass of a Saturn V is about 90 feet above the engines when it launches, and yet even in the first seconds of flight it doesn't fall over. And believe it or not it wasn't even lifting off vertically, but had a small tilt to take it away from the launch tower. So with a centre of mass 90 feet up and not even centred over the engines, the Saturn V very obviously had no issues with 'balance'. Furthermore, as the rocket burned fuel the centre of mass moved even higher, so the vehicle got even more top heavy.

The LM is quite simply the least top-heavy part of the entire Apollo system. This is a non-issue.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2025, 12:37:07 PM by Jason Thompson »
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Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #647 on: January 07, 2025, 12:14:39 PM »
How many more times: Rockets. Do. Not. Balance. On. Thrust. This has been known for a very long time.
When gravity is involved (on a slower moving vehicle without much centrifugal force), there is a constant downward force applied on the COM.... so for a pitched LM, this throws it off balance, requiring the RCS to maintain it's balance... remove the RCS, and it would fall over to a nose-dive.

So term it how you like - this Trio needs to execute correct balance (i.e. attitude control) between 3 forces --  gravity, main engine thrust, and RCS --- all while achieving high fidelity control over the trajectory of the LM to landing.... and while maintaining control of Yaw angle, with imperfect RCS jets that don't have EXACT predictable/consistent outputs.

It was bleeding edge tech -- without even a POC to test it...   And afterwards, these capabilities at this level, disappeared... not to return until post-2000.

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #648 on: January 07, 2025, 12:16:01 PM »
The LM is quite simply the least top-heavy part of the entire Apollo system. This is a non-issue.
SaturnV wasn't trying to "land" -- like Elon's Starship.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #649 on: January 07, 2025, 12:23:25 PM »
The LM is quite simply the least top-heavy part of the entire Apollo system. This is a non-issue.
SaturnV wasn't trying to "land" -- like Elon's Starship.

So? You literally just said:

Quote
When gravity is involved (on a slower moving vehicle without much centrifugal force), there is a constant downward force applied on the COM.

The Saturn V, like any rocket, in the first moments of flight is a slower moving vehicle pitched over with gravity acting on its COM. The Little Joe rockets used in Mercury test flights took off at an angle of about 20 degrees. Again, they didn't cartwheel into the ground.

Rocket do not balance on thrust. That is a fact however many times you keep insisting it isn't.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #650 on: January 07, 2025, 12:25:55 PM »
Lets add flying and aeronautics to the long list of things that you know nothing about. Let me guess....you have zero hours as a Pilot In Command?
I've been developing aviation software for pilots near full-time for over 10 years.  I've also seen no-tech paper airplanes fly, have you?

But the 4+ propeller style drones we see today are new-tech, post-2000... much harder to balance, and they are NOT top-heavy; like the LLTV, they are bottom-heavy (slightly).

The tech to balance-while-maneuvering the LM in real-life didn't get developed for years -- because it's much harder.   It would have been astounding to see this tech roll out in the 1970's...

So you have zero hours flying a plane? Yet you have the confidence to claim

Airplanes are much easier to fly - and practically fly themselves,
You are the gift that constantly proves this quotation
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”
« Last Edit: January 07, 2025, 12:27:46 PM by Zakalwe »
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #651 on: January 07, 2025, 12:38:03 PM »
So you have zero hours flying a plane? Yet you have the confidence to claim

Airplanes are much easier to fly - and practically fly themselves,
You are the gift that constantly proves this quotation
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”

SOmeone I know very well is currently learning to fly a plane and would certainly take issue with the suggestion that they fly themsevles!
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #652 on: January 07, 2025, 12:42:04 PM »
See attached diagram...
Why do you think you can just string them along in a one-dimensional solution? That's going to wreak all kinds of error when you start using this diagram to reason about moments of inertia.

Quote
Result: Combined COM for the LM on landing was at least 2.4' ABOVE the center of Thrust.
So your definition of "top heavy" seems to be any arrangement in which the center of mass is above the center of thrust. So yes, you're still laboring under the broomstick fallacy. Several other people have tried to disabuse of this common layperson's misconception. I'm very busy today, but I'll take a stab at it. It is a fact that putting arranging for the center of mass to be below the center of thrust does not result in passive stability. This is a fact according to the analysis and it is a fact according to 100 years worth of empirical experience.

The broomstick analogy is a fallacy because your hand always applies "thrust" upwards, not often along the broomstick axis. This means the as the broomstick tips and its center of mass departs the footprint of your hand, the rotational component of the force you are applying increases; the solution diverges rapidly and you lose control. This is the classical balancing problem. However, rockets do not operate this way. The thrust is always along the axis of the rocket. Any departure from the ideal situation in which the thrust vector points through the center of mass is preserved through the rotation. The controlling moments do not diverge, and this makes all the difference in the world. This is because the engine (and its thrust vector) rotate with the craft, which is not what happens in the balancing problem. While it remains true that the error moment increases in gravity as the tilt increases, this is not solved by moving the center of thrust to a point above the center of mass. Why? because the thrust vector is still fixed, the corrective moments are still fixed, and the dynamics remain literally unchanged.

Putting the center of drag behind the center of mass in a rocket flying through air achieves passive aerodynamic stability, but this is not meant to correct somehow for an inherently unstable thrust dynamic.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #653 on: January 07, 2025, 12:58:42 PM »
Jay has explained the centre of mass and centre of thrust misconception. There's also something else about the three dimensional world that najak doesn't understand, and it is has everything to do with one of the heaviest parts of the LM and just how those brilliant engineers considered moments of inertia in their design.
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Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #654 on: January 07, 2025, 01:21:05 PM »
The broomstick analogy is a fallacy because your hand always applies "thrust" upwards, not often along the broomstick axis. This means the as the broomstick tips and its center of mass departs the footprint of your hand, the rotational component of the force you are applying increases; the solution diverges rapidly and you lose control. This is the classical balancing problem. However, rockets do not operate this way. The thrust is always along the axis of the rocket. Any departure from the ideal situation in which the thrust vector points through the center of mass is preserved through the rotation. The controlling moments do not diverge, and this makes all the difference in the world. This is because the engine (and its thrust vector) rotate with the craft, which is not what happens in the balancing problem. While it remains true that the error moment increases in gravity as the tilt increases, this is not solved by moving the center of thrust to a point above the center of mass. Why? because the thrust vector is still fixed, the corrective moments are still fixed, and the dynamics remain literally unchanged.

Putting the center of drag behind the center of mass in a rocket flying through air achieves passive aerodynamic stability, but this is not meant to correct somehow for an inherently unstable thrust dynamic.
I was aware of this, and realize that the rotating direction of thrust to always point through the COM is BETTER than the traditional broomstick model (with force always upwards).  If you draw out the static diagram of forces acting upon this rigid body, gravity pulls down "uniformly" on all mass, so can be modeled as pulling down on the COM, correct?  While the thrust, which is "behind the COM" (or below when upright), is NOT providing a counter balance to gravity when LM is pitched at an angle.  Therefore the RCS + Engine thrust must work together to maintain balance (attitude) along with maintaining a high-fidelity targeted trajectory to landing.

During Landing with LM pitch over, Gravity is ACTIVELY pulling on the LM.   In this case, it MATTERS VERY MUCH the relative location of the Center-of-Thrust.    If Above the LM COM, then this thrust would REDUCE the amount of RCS force required to maintain attitude/pitch.   If "Exactly AT the COM", then RCS itself could be mostly passive..   But if BELOW the COM, then the Gravity becomes a DESTABILIZING FORCE, against which the RCS must constantly counter-act!

In the case of the LLTV, the Jet Engine was much closer to the COM... such that this instability from Pitching did NOT occur, making it easier to fly.

===
This would have been beyond-bleeding-edge-tech for the 1960's...  not coming to fruition until decades later.

But Apollo skipped this POC entirely.   Real-world performance isn't the same as "theory on paper"... and requires a lot of rework and adjustments -- especially for bleeding-edge tech.... never done before, and not to be done again for decades.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2025, 01:22:40 PM by najak »

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #655 on: January 07, 2025, 01:30:06 PM »
Jay has explained the centre of mass and centre of thrust misconception. There's also something else about the three dimensional world that najak doesn't understand, and it is has everything to do with one of the heaviest parts of the LM and just how those brilliant engineers considered moments of inertia in their design.
Have you ever seen the LM "moment of inertia" analysis?  I've been searching for it.  I think it's one of the "majority of LM docs" discarded.

For the RCS to "estimate firing time", it would need to be aware of the current inertial state of the LM and AM, which would be ever changing, as the fuel burns.   I don't believe the AGC program itself accounts for this -- which induces more questionability for the ability of this TRIO to conduct this bleeding edge tech for auto-pilot.... without a POC.

Even for the Rendezvous - for Apollo, from a 400 meter distance (approx) it was a 5 minute operation to dock.  While for CST/Crewdragon today - it goes MUCH SLOWER for the docking as they are REALLY doing it.... using tech with 1000x the fidelity tech (sensors + computing).

All without a POC.  Mag40 asked me what I'd like my next thread to be about - it would probably be "the LM" itself.

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #656 on: January 07, 2025, 01:37:32 PM »
Even for the Rendezvous - for Apollo, from a 400 meter distance (approx) it was a 5 minute operation to dock.  While for CST/Crewdragon today - it goes MUCH SLOWER for the docking as they are REALLY doing it.... using tech with 1000x the fidelity tech (sensors + computing).
I've asked you at least twice to produce a source for this claim. Please provide documentation of the docking procedures for both Apollo and ISS, with some kind of time stamps for the steps. If you can't or won't, then stop restating this as fact. I suspect you have no idea how to compare the docking procedures for Lunar ascent and for the ISS and are making mistakes, like you so often do.

I am directly challenging the veracity of your statement. If you believe what you're saying than support it with evidence. The burden is yours.

Offline Mag40

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #657 on: January 07, 2025, 01:46:25 PM »
Mag40 asked me what I'd like my next thread to be about - it would probably be "the LM" itself.
Nope, I asked a list on an external document to see how much is new. The problem is not what you present, it is a whole host of bizarre behaviours. An honest scientist would not take a stance on something in complete ignorance. You have. We are getting post after post where you show a basic knowledge of Apollo that is woeful. You are arguing with people who have been studying this for decades.

The LM was designed for purpose by engineers working at Grumman, not NASA. Neither engine was built by NASA either.
I suggest you actually read this and try to (for once!) dispense with your crazy confirmation bias:
https://www.clavius.org/scale.html

(The site is safe, I believe it needs a certificate for the httpS part.)

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #658 on: January 07, 2025, 01:49:13 PM »
Have you ever seen the LM "moment of inertia" analysis?  I've been searching for it.  I think it's one of the "majority of LM docs" discarded.

So you need the moment of inertia to prove your claim?

I don't believe the AGC program itself accounts for this.

I don't believe. That's your proof?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2025, 01:56:17 PM by Luke Pemberton »
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #659 on: January 07, 2025, 01:58:32 PM »
While the thrust, which is "behind the COM" (or below when upright), is NOT providing a counter balance to gravity when LM is pitched at an angle.

Seriously? I learned how to calculate horizontal and vertical components of a force acting at an angle in school. Any thrust angled even slightly upwards has a component working in opposition to the downward pull of gravity.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain