Author Topic: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast  (Read 38879 times)

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #615 on: January 06, 2025, 12:49:43 PM »
1. Attempting to debunk the supporting evidence would be even more valuable for proving a hoax claim...
2. Gish Gallop... Each time you are cornered in one, you attempt to redirect to one that you mistakenly believe gives you surer footing.

1. Attempting to debunk supporting evidence is why I'm here.  If I didn't want to see it debunked, I'd stay in an echo chamber where people are nice to me.
No, presenting badly vetted, cherry picked ideas rife with misinformation to support your assumption that the Moon landings were faked is why you're here. I told you very shortly after you arrived here that Apollo would never be disproven by minutiae that doesn't look right to you. Look at the engineering that went in to the LM and explain specifically why it could not have done what it was designed and built to do. Look at the geological information regarding the Moon rocks and try to explain why literally every geologist is mistaken about their lunar origin.

In the process of doing actual research, you would discover what the rest of us already know. Instead, you choose to seek anomalies that you mistakenly believe have no explanation, when the truth is, you just don't understand what you're seeing. When confronted with explanations to these anomalies, you simply construct out of your imagination whatever is required to keep your assumptions alive, evidence be damned. No way the additional expenses could be covered in the Apollo budget? Create NasaX, an organization that no one has ever heard of, worked for, and that has generated zero physical evidence of its existence. Information or quotes about a topic that negates one of your claims? Paid NASA shill. Information or quotes about a topic from an independent enthusiast? Not a qualified expert. You handwave into or out of existence absolutely anything you need to in order to cling to these anomalies.

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2. Gish gallop is when you do NOT discuss things to conclusion... on purpose. 
Again, it's clear you don't really understand, so I'll try to make it more clear. Gish Gallop is when you attempt to support a claim with an overwhelming amount of arguments, regardless of whether those arguments are strong, or even correct.

Your claim is that the Moon landings were faked. To support this claim, you've presented 5 poor arguments, with who knows how many more poor arguments waiting in the wings. When cornered in one, your intention is to shift to another and another and another. A great example is in this thread, about Lunar launches, and you repeatedly try to get Jay to engage with you about flag movements.

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I'm stating individual pieces of evidence that I believe have NOT been debunked and I'm trying to see if they CAN BE DEBUNKED... thus I'm here.   
How can you even pretend to be looking for any kind of truth when you have exerted zero effort to discover the truth for yourself? You have repeatedly been caught presenting things as fact that were wrong. You should have vetted all of this before you ever brought it here.

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When one is debunked, I concede, as I should.
Your "concessions", such as they are, make it clear that your pride is much more important to you than any truth. You equivocate where possible, or simply claim that there's no answer in either direction. While you have acknowledged when certain aspects of what you've presented have been factually incorrect, you have never once accepted factual rebuttal.

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There is a SERIES OF EVIDENCE that, in my view, seem to support MLH - and at this point, I don't know for sure which ones are true vs. not.
There is exactly zero evidence that supports MLH. There are a number of anomalies that you don't understand and have, for whatever reason, decided that you may assume the Moon landings were faked. You don't know the difference between which ones are true or not because you haven't done any meaningful research.

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But there are ones that remain, which should be discussed.  But currently aren't permitted.
They are permitted. You aren't permitted to continue with your current pattern of presenting piles of nonsense to support your presupposition that the Moon landings are fake.

I'm not holding my breath waiting, but if you find some humility, start accepting that there is a great deal you don't know, and start asking questions from a position of being genuinely interested in the answers, I expect that a lot of people here will help you out.

If you continue to insist on conclusions without evidence, shifting the burden of proof, handwaving away or outright ignoring counterpoints, and doing all of it while being insufferably arrogant, then although your ideas may be permitted here, you certainly won't be. This is the distinction you seem to having trouble grasping.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #616 on: January 06, 2025, 01:32:21 PM »
Again, it's clear you don't really understand, so I'll try to make it more clear. Gish Gallop is when you attempt to support a claim with an overwhelming amount of arguments, regardless of whether those arguments are strong, or even correct.
You wrote: "STRONG":
You can argue with the dictionary and Wikipedia on this one.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/gish-gallop

"a style of arguing in which someone tries to win a debate (= a political, etc. discussion) by using so many different arguments so quickly that their opponent cannot answer them, although these arguments may not be true, correct, or reasonable"

==
All have been discussed at length -- so "not too fast".  And I'm making what I believed were GOOD/TRUE arguments.

I'm NOT trying to win the MLH debate here.   I'm trying to figure out which claims of MLH are solid, ambiguous, skewed, overstated, or entirely false.

Gish Gallop RELIES upon not providing time for the arguments to be scrutinized/cross-examined...  That's never been my goal for ANY of these.

Sometimes a thousand smaller but true/compelling details CAN make a case.

In a case where an institution is lying, the truth can only be revealed through smaller mistakes/mess-ups (assuming they did a reasonable job of constructing their lie).  It's the ONLY VIABLE METHOD to discover the Lie.

If there is No Lie with Apollo - then that should become obvious, even after discussing the various other points I'd like to bring up.  And no seemingly better place than ApolloHoax.net.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #617 on: January 06, 2025, 01:35:21 PM »
You aren't permitted to continue with your current pattern of presenting piles of nonsense...
8 flag motions, still has no viable explanation for the motions towards the LM.  This is a true claim, not nonsense.

Given the SIMPLE CONTEXT (the absence of things that can push on it like this) gives this small incident some weight.

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #618 on: January 06, 2025, 03:04:10 PM »
Again, it's clear you don't really understand, so I'll try to make it more clear. Gish Gallop is when you attempt to support a claim with an overwhelming amount of arguments, regardless of whether those arguments are strong, or even correct.
You wrote: "STRONG":
You can argue with the dictionary and Wikipedia on this one.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/gish-gallop

"a style of arguing in which someone tries to win a debate (= a political, etc. discussion) by using so many different arguments so quickly that their opponent cannot answer them, although these arguments may not be true, correct, or reasonable"
Are you seriously going to quibble about the word choice of "strong" vs. "true, correct, or reasonable"? Do you think that any or all of those qualifiers may also apply to an argument that is described as strong? Are you so desperate to save face that you're resorting to this level of semantic gymnastics to avoid conceding?

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I'm NOT trying to win the MLH debate here.   I'm trying to figure out which claims of MLH are solid, ambiguous, skewed, overstated, or entirely false.
Oh, really? So when you repeatedly, and in multiple threads, claimed "even the Mighty Apollo can't break physics", this was just an exploration ideas?

You have, from the beginning, come in with the hoax a foregone conclusion in your mind, presenting what you thought were unassailable smoking gun type evidence that would force people to convert to your way of thinking. You may think you're very clever changing postures and positions, cherry picking to narrow the focus on one hand, then spinning into a Gish Gallop to distract on another, but no one here sees you as anything but the utter charlatan you are.

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Gish Gallop RELIES upon not providing time for the arguments to be scrutinized/cross-examined...  That's never been my goal for ANY of these.
Then why have you consistently tried to shift topics when you start getting cornered in a thread? If it's not one of your other threads, it's nonsense about the Cold War, or JFK/RFK, or Baron. You do this every single time you're presented with information for which you don't have a counter.

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8 flag motions, still has no viable explanation for the motions towards the LM.  This is a true claim, not nonsense.
You've been told repeatedly that the LM depressurization was responsible for any flag movements not directly caused by the astronauts. Your unwillingness to accept that doesn't make it nonviable. You are not the judge or arbiter of any of this, and your acceptance or rejection is utterly inconsequential to literally everyone on the planet except for you.

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Sometimes a thousand smaller but true/compelling details CAN make a case.
Not if there are a million large, true, and compelling details for the other side. You have been so bogged down trying to pass off these minutiae that you haven't even bothered to examine the overwhelming mountains of evidence that show beyond doubt it was authentic.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2025, 03:06:49 PM by ApolloEnthusiast »

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #619 on: January 06, 2025, 03:06:53 PM »
@najak - https://apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=2016.msg59691#msg59691

Najak - pull your finger out of your backside and address counter argument properly!

What kind of scientist ignores evidence they don't like? You can see astronauts moving around the same LM from the same Rover viewpoint, continuous footage, same background - identical.

And all you come out with was some speculative crap about Star Wars.

Offline frenat

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #620 on: January 06, 2025, 06:49:37 PM »
Pretend you are an ordinary person wanting to find out "why do some people question the moon landing", then turn to Google/YT and see what you can find.
But if you look up Flat Earth - you'll find PLENTY of videos by people who actually believe the Earth is Flat -- AND also don't think we went to the moon.
So why is it easy to find PRO "Flat Earth videos", but NOT for "Moon Landing Hoax"??? 

I think because many of the moon landing hoax proponents either given up because it no longer generates the attention they were looking for, and others have moved on to also thinking the Earth is flat due to crank magnetism

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank_magnetism


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Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #621 on: January 06, 2025, 07:07:51 PM »
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8 flag motions, still has no viable explanation for the motions towards the LM.  This is a true claim, not nonsense.
You've been told repeatedly that the LM depressurization was responsible for any flag movements not directly caused by the astronauts. Your unwillingness to accept that doesn't make it nonviable. You are not the judge or arbiter of any of this, and your acceptance or rejection is utterly inconsequential to literally everyone on the planet except for you.
Come over to that thread and make your stand then.  It's off-topic here.  If you haven't noticed, there STILL is ZERO viable explanations for the 5 movements TOWARD the LM.  We can discuss it more in the other thread if you still aren't realizing this.   You told me that in your search for Apollo truth, you brushed up on your physics -- lets see if you can use those skills to give a viable explanation.  F=ma.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #622 on: January 06, 2025, 07:12:14 PM »
I think because many of the moon landing hoax proponents either given up because it no longer generates the attention they were looking for, and others have moved on to also thinking the Earth is flat due to crank magnetism
Nope.  As interest has grown, the anti-NASA videos have become hidden.

Type this into google, and see what you get: "Videos that show how the moon landing was a hoax"

Nothing but anti-MLH.   Some titles LOOK like they might be pro-MLH, but they aren't.  If interest in proving MLH has died out, then so would "debating them" -- yet ONLY the pro-MLH videos are now soft-censored from the public finding the reasonable arguments -- such as A12 Dish flinging, the Hammering making Sounds, and the 8 flag motions of A14.

Google/YT has determined the truth for us all.  Are you comfy with that?

Offline frenat

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #623 on: January 06, 2025, 07:23:18 PM »
I think because many of the moon landing hoax proponents either given up because it no longer generates the attention they were looking for, and others have moved on to also thinking the Earth is flat due to crank magnetism
Nope.  As interest has grown, the anti-NASA videos have become hidden.

Type this into google, and see what you get: "Videos that show how the moon landing was a hoax"

Nothing but anti-MLH.   Some titles LOOK like they might be pro-MLH, but they aren't.  If interest in proving MLH has died out, then so would "debating them" -- yet ONLY the pro-MLH videos are now soft-censored from the public finding the reasonable arguments -- such as A12 Dish flinging, the Hammering making Sounds, and the 8 flag motions of A14.

Google/YT has determined the truth for us all.  Are you comfy with that?
comfy with your OPINION that they have been hidden? Yet to see any proof of that. And even if they are, at BEST it shows only that private websites have a bias. There are still plenty of other sites that push the hoax nonsense.

And you ignored that many have moved onto include flat Earth as well.

Thanks for the humor though!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2025, 07:29:11 PM by frenat »
-Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension.
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Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #624 on: January 06, 2025, 07:25:55 PM »
@najak - https://apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=2016.msg59691#msg59691

Najak - pull your finger out of your backside and address counter argument properly!

What kind of scientist ignores evidence they don't like? You can see astronauts moving around the same LM from the same Rover viewpoint, continuous footage, same background - identical.

And all you come out with was some speculative crap about Star Wars.
If you don't stop with the background off topic complaining, I'm guessing you will be kicked out. Now yet again - address the counter-evidence against your failed/aborted ignorant claim.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #625 on: January 06, 2025, 08:14:18 PM »
If you don't stop with the background off topic complaining, I'm guessing you will be kicked out. Now yet again - address the counter-evidence against your failed/aborted ignorant claim.
Be specific -- I see a big post with a lot of full mpg links, no time stamps, no details.  There's nothing to rebut, because you make no claims.

Does this have to do with the Acceleration of the Lunar Module?  If not, and you think these are important, create a thread because they are off-topic.

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #626 on: January 06, 2025, 08:21:37 PM »
Be specific -- I see a big post with a lot of full mpg links, no time stamps, no details.  There's nothing to rebut, because you make no claims.
Your thread details something relating to the launches of the Lunar Modules. You failed spectacularly to prove the premise that this is some sort of fabricated launch.

The videos show astronauts walking around the identical lunar modules/backgrounds. This not only invalidates your premise even more, it turns it around completely to YOU explaining how this was faked before it even took off.

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Does this have to do with the Acceleration of the Lunar Module?  If not, and you think these are important, create a thread because they are off-topic.
Bollocks. It directly relates to the premise of this thread. Address it please. Only instead of some crap about special effects, show some actual honesty and look at it without the confirmation bias.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #627 on: January 06, 2025, 08:25:52 PM »
Bollocks. It directly relates to the premise of this thread. Address it please. Only instead of some crap about special effects, show some actual honesty and look at it without the confirmation bias.
So provide me a fresh/clean post, that shows a videos with time stamp/window, and more detail, and I'll address.

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #628 on: January 06, 2025, 08:45:15 PM »
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8 flag motions, still has no viable explanation for the motions towards the LM.  This is a true claim, not nonsense.
You've been told repeatedly that the LM depressurization was responsible for any flag movements not directly caused by the astronauts. Your unwillingness to accept that doesn't make it nonviable. You are not the judge or arbiter of any of this, and your acceptance or rejection is utterly inconsequential to literally everyone on the planet except for you.
Come over to that thread and make your stand then.  It's off-topic here.  If you haven't noticed, there STILL is ZERO viable explanations for the 5 movements TOWARD the LM. We can discuss it more in the other thread if you still aren't realizing this. 
Pay attention. IT WAS DEPRESSURIZATION FROM THE LM. There's no point in one more person telling you in that thread if you still haven't understood it.

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You told me that in your search for Apollo truth, you brushed up on your physics -- lets see if you can use those skills to give a viable explanation.  F=ma.
No, I won't be indulging your desire to shift the burden of proof. The LM depressurization explanation requires the Moon, an LM, and astronauts all things documented to be present in multiple ways.

Your alleged anomaly requires a studio that no one's ever seen that left no physical evidence, a crew of people to work the filming who never admitted it, a bunch of lying astronauts and NASA brass, and a moron who coincidently opened a door every time they did a depress.

If you have better evidence to preset, put it in the thread. But for as long as you have to construct elaborate nonsense to justify your explanations you have less than nothing. 

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #629 on: January 06, 2025, 09:15:59 PM »
I want to point out something quite significant that has had an utterly useless "explanation" provided. The whole Apollo 17 launch seen was part of continued footage from the moment the rover was parked. It involved considerable activity in and around the LM with the identical background. Schmitt throws a hammer and we even see it glint as it reaches zenith.

I cannot understand how any reasonable person can look at that and not see how ridiculous it would be to fake that in 1972.

I detailed one of them above where we see astronauts walking around the identical LM and backdrop on Apollo 17. Well, it didn't occur to me that Apollo 16 would also provide such clear and obvious evidence. But oh does it ever!

Activity around the final rover spot and camera zooms to LM - astronaut approaches LM:
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a16/a16v.1704507.mpg

This is the one - activity around the LM that if najak says is faked, then it shows he really is delusional:
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a16/a16v.1704820.mpg

Static camera activity continues:
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a16/a16v.1705138.mpg