Author Topic: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast  (Read 10215 times)

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #450 on: December 17, 2024, 07:46:38 AM »

You say "Jay isn't going to do your work"... but he's spending a heck of a lot MORE effort doing this the very slow way.  More work - to get it done slower.  This is how you behave when you don't want to get to the end of the road.

This is like when Eugene on the TWD sabotaged the bus so they couldn't reach DC.   He didn't want to get there.

It's more than a little unfair to blame the teacher for the student being a slow learner....
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline bknight

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #451 on: December 17, 2024, 08:04:48 AM »

You say "Jay isn't going to do your work"... but he's spending a heck of a lot MORE effort doing this the very slow way.  More work - to get it done slower.  This is how you behave when you don't want to get to the end of the road.

This is like when Eugene on the TWD sabotaged the bus so they couldn't reach DC.   He didn't want to get there.

It's more than a little unfair to blame the teacher for the student being a slow learner....
I love this comment.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #452 on: December 17, 2024, 08:12:44 AM »
#2: Jay is being kind to humor you, but this is the responsibility of the claimant, in this case, you.
#2: Since it's impossible to prove "we didn't miss anything" (can't fully prove a negative), we can address all identified viable/significant contributors to thrust.
Then the ball is in the Apollogists court to say "you missed something", if there is something missed.
[/quote]
The ball isn't in anyone else's court until you have exhausted all of the reasonable explanations, a task that not only haven't you done, but that you aren't currently capable of doing. There's no shame in that, most of us aren't capable of doing it without a great deal of specialized education and experience. But not having the education to complete your obligation doesn't exonerate you from that obligation. The claim isn't supported until it can be demonstrated that there isn't a reasonable explanation.*

And while Jay attempts to hold your hand and help you with your homework, instead of being grateful and cooperating, you're resistant every step of the way and you're acting like a petulant child.

*A solar eclipse may appear as a bizarre anomaly to people who don't understand what is happening, but is a perfectly normal and predictable event once the underlying information is understood. Your understanding of rocketry is insufficient to justify calling your alleged anomaly "magic".

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #453 on: December 17, 2024, 09:42:51 AM »
In what world is Jay's behavior here considered "good teaching"?    Or "good engineering"?

Top level view comes first.  "What do you plan to do?" and "What candidates do we foresee as being contributors?"

Then "how do you plan to do it?"

Then you start taking your steps.

When asked questions about details, you answer as best as you can.

This is what it looks like to be a good teacher and engineer.

But if you don't want to get to the end of the road, and want to stall and slow things down -- then obscurity is your friend.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #454 on: December 17, 2024, 10:26:41 AM »
In what world is Jay's behavior here considered "good teaching"?    Or "good engineering"?

One where it's not up to you, and is up to Jay.]

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #455 on: December 17, 2024, 10:27:33 AM »
In what world is Jay's behavior here considered "good teaching"?    Or "good engineering"?
In a world where you get a renowned expert walk you through your blunders.
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Top level view comes first.  "What do you plan to do?" and "What candidates do we foresee as being contributors?" Then "how do you plan to do it?" Then you start taking your steps. When asked questions about details, you answer as best as you can. This is what it looks like to be a good teacher and engineer.
My god is there no end to the bloke's arrogance. Not only is he taking a situation and distorting to the bullshit hoax because he doesn't understand rocketry, now he's posturing about how he should be bloody educated!

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But if you don't want to get to the end of the road, and want to stall and slow things down -- then obscurity is your friend.
Stop trolling. When you get to the end of this road two things should happen but I suspect only one. You will get your arse handed to you again and two you won't withdraw this stupid claim.

I showed you identical views of the Apollo 17 LM and Schmitt chucking a hammer (you can even see it glint mid throw) and you came out with a load of old bollocks about Star Wars. You simply haven't got the balls to concede anything that brings your flimsy house of cards down. No logical person looks at that and says it's a special effect or even more moronic, that it's two different scenes. It's way, way too good for 1972.

Offline bknight

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #456 on: December 17, 2024, 11:05:16 AM »
What I find is najak posturing, such that when he is unable to compute the thrust for that one second, he will claim victory, because he is unable to prove the physics.
When reality the physics are there and he is just unable to fathom the computation, it isn't Jay's fault, but najak's.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #457 on: December 17, 2024, 11:19:58 AM »
In what world is Jay's behavior here considered "good teaching"?    Or "good engineering"?

Top level view comes first.  "What do you plan to do?" and "What candidates do we foresee as being contributors?"

Then "how do you plan to do it?"

Then you start taking your steps.

When asked questions about details, you answer as best as you can.

This is what it looks like to be a good teacher and engineer.

But if you don't want to get to the end of the road, and want to stall and slow things down -- then obscurity is your friend.
You've already established that pedagogy is something you're not competent to critique. Stop biting the hand that feeds you and take the free education you're being graciously given in spite of your arrogance and lack of gratitude.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #458 on: December 17, 2024, 03:21:00 PM »
Because I'm ALSO doing the math for Hydrazine + N2O4 combustion...   and getting a different-than-published-ratings result (15% too low).
The only "published figure" you've cited is the 19.5 MJ/kg figure that is the standard heat of combustion. That's for the reaction between hydrazine and atmospheric oxygen under standard conditions (298 K and one atmosphere of pressure). The reaction between hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide is expected to have a different change in enthalpy because the oxidizer is not free oxygen—it's an oxygen-bound compound.

I was puzzling over some of the questions you asked a few days ago—not about the answers, but why you would be asking them. As we previously explored, this is often the hardest part of teaching. You asked a question to the effect of whether it was possible to compute the heat outputs of reactions rather than just looking them up. Well, yes, that's what thermodynamics is largely concerned with, and most technical people know this. And I was initially baffled by the question I answered briefly last night. Now it has finally fallen into place. You're just now starting to grapple with the extremely basic principle that different reactions among different reactants produce different changes in enthalpy!

I'm guessing you've never studied thermodynamics.

It's hard to express just what a fundamentally wrong misconception you seem to be laboring under. This is worse than looking into the big end of the telescope or pouring oil in the car radiator. You're not just dusting off 30-year-old knowledge. This is knowledge you evidently never had and certainly aren't learning very well now. I was expecting it to be hard slogging to get through a discussion of non-standard conditions and how to adjust for them as we'll have to do in our problem, but this is a true facepalm moment.

It doesn't matter how long it's been since you took the class. There is literally no way a student who sat through even just the first week of introductory thermodynamics would think that there is some pat number you can just look up in a book and that this will be the change in enthalpy that works in all cases or after you change one of the reactants. That extremely broken expectation is the piece that finally fell into place.

No wonder you want to speed past this part of the examination—it's way over your head. No wonder you didn't feel like exploring the questions I asked you regarding how we adjust our values for non-standard conditions and what our next steps of analysis ought to be—you don't appear to know enough about the field even to realize what the ramifications of any of those questions would be.

No, you can't discuss the performance of a thermodynamic engine without a thermodynamics analysis. No, you can't just look up numbers in some "industry standard" for every question and avoid having to do hard work. No, we're not going to skip the details and just fly by the problem at some high level that you can easily sidestep (as you've done every other time).

Speeding up is definitely not the order of the day. In fact, we're going to have to slow way down and bring you up to speed from about 2nd-year high school chemistry. And no, I have no plans to spend the holiday season as a remedial tutor, so this might be my post on the subject until after the holidays. I just can't even...
« Last Edit: December 17, 2024, 04:15:14 PM by JayUtah »
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #459 on: December 17, 2024, 06:14:21 PM »
Now it has finally fallen into place. You're just now starting to grapple with the extremely basic principle that different reactions among different reactants produce different changes in enthalpy!
Nope.  I know this.  The equations are obvious.  I was trying to compare it to a "known result" and when I found this #, I thought it was combining with N2O4, not atmospheric oxygen.

A simple mistake, easy to spot and correct.   Instead you think hard to conclude the worst about my intelligence.  Predictable.  You do this at every turn.

So are my calcs then correct in your book?  ~23 MJ/kg for A50 + N2O4?

And instead of simply stating "yes, those #'s are correct" or "no, you missed something" - you spend a few paragraphs in a fully derogatory monolog about the (purposefully) false presumptions you made about my aptitude.

Your goal is to stall this, because the end of the road, looks bad for the Apollogy.

This claim has stood 40+ years without debunk..  because it can't be debunked.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #460 on: December 17, 2024, 06:18:25 PM »
Nope.  I know this.  The equations are obvious.  I was trying to compare it to a "known result" and when I found this #, I thought it was combining with N2O4, not atmospheric oxygen.

A simple mistake, easy to spot and correct.

No, it's a vastly wrong conceptual error. The notion that you can just "look up" the important figures is something you've belabored for pages.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #461 on: December 17, 2024, 06:20:09 PM »
You've already established that pedagogy is something you're not competent to critique. Stop biting the hand that feeds you and take the free education you're being graciously given in spite of your arrogance and lack of gratitude.
Unclog your nose, so you can smell the fish.  He's doing all he can do to discredit me, and find excuses to stall.

This isn't even MY CLAIM -- it's a 40 year claim of 2.5x the normal acceleration -- that remains fully NON-DEBUNKED.

All conceivable "significant contributors to acceleration" are being considered here in this claim.

He doesn't want to make progress here - because it's going to turn out bad for Clavius.

Ever watch the TWD?  Remember when Eugene sabotaged the bus on the way to DC??   He didn't want to be found out, so he stalled them.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #462 on: December 17, 2024, 06:21:52 PM »
Nope.  I know this.  The equations are obvious.  I was trying to compare it to a "known result" and when I found this #, I thought it was combining with N2O4, not atmospheric oxygen.
No, it's a vastly wrong conceptual error. The notion that you can just "look up" the important figures is something you've belabored for pages.
19.4 MJ/kg for O2 - was just LOOKED UP.  For popular combustion formulas - these #'s are already known.

So - I've calculated 23 MJ/kg --  how close is this to the # you calculate or have in mind?

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #463 on: December 17, 2024, 06:26:55 PM »
He's doing all he can do to discredit me, and find excuses to stall.

No, I'm resisting your desire to Gish-gallop your way around the requirements of your claim. At every step you demonstrate why we have to go slow and correct your understanding of the problem.

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This isn't even MY CLAIM...

Yes, it is. You claim that (1) the ascent stage rises according to a particular velocity profile, and (2) that this velocity profile is not attributable to the operation of a thermodynamic engine of a particular type and design. Your work to establish (2) has been mostly floundering and knee-jerk denial.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline bknight

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #464 on: December 17, 2024, 06:27:17 PM »
Unclog your nose, so you can smell the fish.  He's doing all he can do to discredit me, and find excuses to stall.
You're doing more than anyone on this board to discredit yourself.
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This isn't even MY CLAIM -- it's a 40 year claim of 2.5x the normal acceleration -- that remains fully NON-DEBUNKED.
Continually stating this falsehood will/does not make it true.  But by all means continue to embarrass yourself.
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All conceivable "significant contributors to acceleration" are being considered here in this claim.
If that were a fact, you would have already solved the problem and debunked yourself.
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He doesn't want to make progress here - because it's going to turn out bad for Clavius.
You are the one who is making this longer than it needs to be.  You know it is simple to say I don't understand it.
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Ever watch the TWD?  Remember when Eugene sabotaged the bus on the way to DC??   He didn't want to be found out, so he stalled them.
The last statement is just obfuscation on your part.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan