Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched

[Mag40]

Can you sort out quotes on that last post

[najak]

Can you sort out quotes on that last post

ooops, done.

[Mag40]

Note - what's more important than words from Jay, are direct NASA statements.  For meaning, we need some NASA direct quotes, or even some quotes tied to larger institutions that value their integrity, also helps.  Got any direct quotes from a larger institution? (e.g. NASA)

Not interested. It's a Gish gallup that anyone with google-fu could resolve. Besides.... Jay Windley is a renowned expert on Apollo amongst other things.

If you look at the before/after photos, which are spaced in time very far apart... you'll see the removal of equipment that was right next to it... do we have the footage of this equipment being moved -- as it would be a very likely time for the flag to be "touched".

Not my problem. Go fetch.

What is your theory for how the flag pole turned 180 deg?  And then how would it then COME BACK ON SCREEN 4x total?  You have to explain 4 separate appearances of the flag.

You've had this explained to you already. Cabin depressurisation. I really could not care less what maths you think you have performed to suggest that isn't the case. In a vacuum, any force will cause motion.

Well if there were atmosphere, this explains the motion more than anything?  (it creates a wind burst which propagates EASILY, vs. a ground reverb)

Begging the question. I'm seeing a "wind burst" but not in the way you think.

But I'm not seeing ANY flag motion at the time the PLSS is tossed, are you?

Are you blind? It happens the split second the second PLSS is tossed.

On this NASA footage link here, the flag waving starts at 13:50 and is done 15 seconds later.

Depressurisation.

The PLSS isn't thrown for another One Minute!  And the flag has already long been offscreen.

You make that sound significant. My retort is so what?

Please lay out your theory here, and why you are trying to associate this tossed PLSS with ANY flag motion at all?

That YouTube link of yours.... 16:24 second PLSS lands and immediately the flag flutters. Where is your logic? Ground vibration. It's a rock hard surface it only needs a small vibration. Low gravity, less friction. Obviously same inertia but if that moves the pole just a little, why not the flag?

The other alternative is that the split second the second PLSS impacted something else moved it. Again, where is your logic?

[najak]

Please lay out your theory here, and why you are trying to associate this tossed PLSS with ANY flag motion at all?

That YouTube link of yours.... 16:24 second PLSS lands and immediately the flag flutters. Where is your logic? Ground vibration. It's a rock hard surface it only needs a small vibration. Low gravity, less friction. Obviously same inertia but if that moves the pole just a little, why not the flag?

So your flag flutter is just a few pixels that appear to be the end of the horizontal pole for a split-second.  I see it now (pictured below).

I think this could be a possible tiny-jolt to the pole.  This seems feasible.  But a jolt of this nature would not then cause a 180 degree turn away, which seems to be your thesis.

You've established that "the exhaust didn't move the pole" but think it was this PLSS thrown, somehow causing significant rotational acceleration of the vertical pole.  Yes?

If so - that's fine with me.  It doesn't address my main contention.  For now, I'll accept this thesis.   The PLSS landed, and somehow caused the flag to rotate 180 deg.   

THE MAIN CONTENTION REMAINS:

So then how do you propose the Exhaust PULLED the flag TOWARDS IT?  (4X) -- all prior to the PLSS landing.

This is the part that remains FULLY UNREFUTED.

[Mag40]

So your flag flutter is just a few pixels that appear to be the end of the horizontal pole for a split-second.  I see it now (pictured below).

It occurs at that exact point.

I think this could be a possible tiny-jolt to the pole.  This seems feasible.  But a jolt of this nature would not then cause a 180 degree turn away, which seems to be your thesis.

I asked you to prove this 180 degree thing. I have been through the record and the various camera views are very different and it's difficult to determine what level of movement occurred. The depressurisation caused some changes, so how do you confirm it as 180 degrees (even if previous to this process it was)?

You've established that "the exhaust didn't move the pole" but think it was this PLSS thrown, somehow causing significant rotational acceleration of the vertical pole.  Yes?

It fits the visible evidence and is most certainly not impossible on a rock hard surface and an indeterminable stablity of the pole support.

THE MAIN CONTENTION REMAINS:

So then how do you propose the Exhaust PULLED the flag TOWARDS IT?  (4X) -- all prior to the PLSS landing.

This is the part that remains FULLY UNREFUTED.

Where is your logic? All it needs to do is send it away gently and pendulum action rocks it back. How is that not perfectly explained by what is happening?

[LunarOrbit]

NASA's main defense of this "flawed simulation" was:

1. that until post-2000, no one could easily obtain, replay, and analyze NASA photos, videos, PDF's, transcripts.

And you think it makes perfect logical sense to believe that NASA would provide all of that to the public so that they could closely analyze it and potentially expose the hoax?

[TimberWolfAu]

NASA's main defense of this "flawed simulation" was:

1. that until post-2000, no one could easily obtain, replay, and analyze NASA photos, videos, PDF's, transcripts.

And you think it makes perfect logical sense to believe that NASA would provide all of that to the public so that they could closely analyze it and potentially expose the hoax?

Which is more amusing when I have PDF copies of the Apollo 11 photo guide and order forms that were issued at the end of 1969 IIRC.

[najak]

So then how do you propose the Exhaust PULLED the flag TOWARDS IT?  (4X) -- all prior to the PLSS landing.

Where is your logic? All it needs to do is send it away gently and pendulum action rocks it back. How is that not perfectly explained by what is happening?

One of the motions stays onscreen for many many seconds, very still.  Are you explaining this as Pendulum?

=== ALERT ====
I just noticed that recently NASA modified this footage to cut off about 10 pixels from the right side, thus cropping out the majority of the flag.   Unbelievable.

NASA has been doing this to us for decades.  This is just the latest example of it.  Here is the image of BEFORE(top) and AFTER (bottom).

[najak]

And you think it makes perfect logical sense to believe that NASA would provide all of that to the public so that they could closely analyze it and potentially expose the hoax?

"Perfect" is an overstatement.  Most things are muddied.

With most things that might be conspiracy, they "go away" - e.g. JFK assassination.   The older it gets, the more irrelevant it becomes.

But Apollo is different.   They are "holding back science", and very soon we're going to find out the Lie, because GenX/Y/Z will NOT dirty their hands with the Lies of the Boomers.  That's what I believe will happen, and hope will happen.

So what to do?  One thing they've done is mostly distance themselves from ongoing Lies.  For example the ISRO Chandrayaan hi-resolution images that supposedly show Apollo 11/12 (and weren't modified) -  neither ISRO nor NASA sites/galleries show these images...  no press announcements.  Nothing.  The only confirmations made for these images are from 3rd parties, not part of either organization.

ISRO/NASA operate collaboratively, starting with a framework signed by 2009...   NASA even sometimes retrieves the images from Chandrayaan, and is integrated into the pipeline for reception and processing.    Yet 3rd Party Apollogists (ok to use this term?) - are claiming "Victory" and also framing it as "Why would India lie for the USA?"   A gross overstatement and misrepresentation of the situation, ignoring the collaborative partnership that exists here, and by conflating ISRO with "all of India".

Both organizations are SILENT about the recent Chandrayaan  hi-res images.  Why?  I believe it's because SpaceX is about to deliver "the news" -- within the next few years.   And so NASA/ISRO are "distanced from this new lie"... it's on their server, and they "aren't sure how the photos got modified.." (an undetected security breach?) ...   

Do you find this SILENCE suspicious at all?

Also starting in 2019, China's moon pictures started showing more saturation, to reveal a mostly brownish moon, not true gray as depicted by Apollo.  In 2024, the latest China photos are even more saturated -- revealing more brown tones...   This is only a suspicion here, but looks to me like "China may be done protecting USA lies".  Guessing 2024 was a deadline they agreed to.. as we were supposed to be on the moon by now -- at which point SpaceX could officially break the news.

Why would China protect them at all?  We have $Trillion-dollar trade deal...    And all economies are now interdependent -- if China hurts us, it hurts them.

===
So - I don't know what all thought went into putting all materials online 20+ years ago.  Maybe they simply didn't realize all of mistakes that would be noticed...  until it was too late..  And it's been proven that they've done damage control, changing sources, removing content, etc...   now it's scrubbed, and everyone takes NASA's "current renditions as Original, gold-standard, the true source".

So it's concerning to me that PNA's are not bothered by this - mostly just because they like their current world view, even if it might be false.   Apollo operates very much like a very widespread Universalist (No Hell) Religion.   ... but the Lie is holding back science.   If we go to the moon, and want to be honest this time -- we gotta expose Apollo's hoax.

[najak]

Which is more amusing when I have PDF copies of the Apollo 11 photo guide and order forms that were issued at the end of 1969 IIRC.

Got a link?  Do you have records of how many copies of stuff they sent out to requesters in the 1970's?   Not "how many applications", but "how much was sent out"?  Did they charge for it?  What all would they send you?

Once they made it free/instant via internet -- this changed everything.  Now combine that with online forums/groups/chats -- and when you found "an issue" you now could post it to the group, who could also have instant access to the photo, etc, etc..

Pre-internet, if some lone SMART guy happened to spend 100+ hrs investigating stuff- and found out "this looks faked" - who would believe him?  Without internet, how would he fish for a support group?  After a while of being scorned and outcast - he'll drop it.  Where is his GAIN?  There is none, only cost and tedious work.

So in short-- there was a LOT MORE INVESTIGATION GOING ON POST 2000, then before.   The other thing that helped was the advancement of photo viewing/analysis, and video analysis.   You could start extracting frames... where as in the 1990's, most people hadn't a clue.

Also 1990's was a time of dial-up internet.

Post 2000 -- in come high speed internet--  increasing the convenience of downloading entire ALBUMS of NASA imagery.

When NASA decided to put this stuff online, - they may have simply not predicted the result.  As it was developments AFTER they posted stuff that made it worse for them.

[onebigmonkey]

So what to do?  One thing they've done is mostly distance themselves from ongoing Lies.  For example the ISRO Chandrayaan hi-resolution images that supposedly show Apollo 11/12 (and weren't modified) -  neither ISRO nor NASA sites/galleries show these images...  no press announcements.  Nothing.  The only confirmations made for these images are from 3rd parties, not part of either organization.

ISRO/NASA operate collaboratively, starting with a framework signed by 2009...   NASA even sometimes retrieves the images from Chandrayaan, and is integrated into the pipeline for reception and processing.    Yet 3rd Party Apollogists (ok to use this term?) - are claiming "Victory" and also framing it as "Why would India lie for the USA?"   A gross overstatement and misrepresentation of the situation, ignoring the collaborative partnership that exists here, and by conflating ISRO with "all of India".

Both organizations are SILENT about the recent Chandrayaan  hi-res images.  Why?  I believe it's because SpaceX is about to deliver "the news" -- within the next few years.   And so NASA/ISRO are "distanced from this new lie"... it's on their server, and they "aren't sure how the photos got modified.." (an undetected security breach?) ...   

Do you find this SILENCE suspicious at all?

So this web presentation in June 2021 is silent?

That was just two months after Apollo 11 & 12 were imaged by their OHRC on Chandrayaan-2. The files themselves were released to on their public website in January 2022. As someone who checks their site daily I was one of the first people to downbload, process and publish their images of the site outside that presentation and the one in September that year.

So what?

Your attitude towards it is just a variation on "if I ran the zoo", namely "If there wasn't a press release it didn't happen". The fact is that the Apollo landings are of minor interest to a small community of people. ISRO's lunar missions are not dedicated to finding proof of Apollo, nor are they obliged to conduct their public business to satisfy people who would still "nuh-uh" their way through any offical press releases they might have made. None of that has stopped the terrain mapping cameras on Chandrayaan 1 & 2 imaging evidence of human activity (and hardware) at the Apollo sites. If you have evidence of any kind of doctoring of those images, feel free to provide it. Yes, NASA helps dowblaod the images, because they (along with other spavce agencies) help provide complete global coverage. The Apollo 11 & 12 OHRC images were not downloaded by NASA, they were downloaded by ISOR's DSN at Bangalore. You can check all this yourself.

Also starting in 2019, China's moon pictures started showing more saturation, to reveal a mostly brownish moon, not true gray as depicted by Apollo.  In 2024, the latest China photos are even more saturated -- revealing more brown tones...   This is only a suspicion here, but looks to me like "China may be done protecting USA lies".  Guessing 2024 was a deadline they agreed to.. as we were supposed to be on the moon by now -- at which point SpaceX could officially break the news.

Why would China protect them at all?  We have $Trillion-dollar trade deal...    And all economies are now interdependent -- if China hurts us, it hurts them.

Citation required.

China's images are all available online in two different formats: the large TIFF images available on their WebGIS server, and the smaller individual strips in a proprietry format from which those much larger tiles are compiled. Both sets of images look pretty grey to me, including the ones that show evidence of human activity at the Apollo sites. Feel free to proivide images that contradict that.

What I suggest you do is go to Google Scholar and search for Chandrayaan-2 and/or Chang'e-2 with Apollo. You will get hundreds of returns where both space agencies reference Apollo data (and NASA data generally) as a benchmark for their own reaearch, because Apollo hardware and data provide ground truth for orbital datra iun terms of the physical parameters of the things they are researching and the precise location of the equipment left there by people.

[onebigmonkey]

Which is more amusing when I have PDF copies of the Apollo 11 photo guide and order forms that were issued at the end of 1969 IIRC.

Got a link?  Do you have records of how many copies of stuff they sent out to requesters in the 1970's?   Not "how many applications", but "how much was sent out"?  Did they charge for it?  What all would they send you?

Once they made it free/instant via internet -- this changed everything.  Now combine that with online forums/groups/chats -- and when you found "an issue" you now could post it to the group, who could also have instant access to the photo, etc, etc..

Pre-internet, if some lone SMART guy happened to spend 100+ hrs investigating stuff- and found out "this looks faked" - who would believe him?  Without internet, how would he fish for a support group?  After a while of being scorned and outcast - he'll drop it.  Where is his GAIN?  There is none, only cost and tedious work.

So in short-- there was a LOT MORE INVESTIGATION GOING ON POST 2000, then before.   The other thing that helped was the advancement of photo viewing/analysis, and video analysis.   You could start extracting frames... where as in the 1990's, most people hadn't a clue.

Also 1990's was a time of dial-up internet.

Post 2000 -- in come high speed internet--  increasing the convenience of downloading entire ALBUMS of NASA imagery.

When NASA decided to put this stuff online, - they may have simply not predicted the result.  As it was developments AFTER they posted stuff that made it worse for them.

NASA put this online because it deserves to be online, and as a taxpayer funded body they have an obligation to give their funders what they paid for.

Prior to that it was all available as hard copy. All you needed to do was ask for it. The images were mostyl sent out as 'packs' of images, but you could also get complete volumes of every photo taken. I have my own copies of the volumes for Apollos 8, 10 and 12. Volumes for Apollo 11, 13 and 14 were also produced. The online versions aren't hard to find.

Most of these tended to end up with researchers at Universities - my copies of that kind of report, and the preliminary science reports I own, were in college libraries. Smart guys examining these records would not have concluded they were faked - had they done so they would not, by definition, have been smart.

The photos were widely published in books, popular magazines, professional magazines and scientific papers. You can find many examples that I own here:

https://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/ephemera/ephemera.html

[najak]

Do you find this SILENCE suspicious at all?

So this web presentation in June 2021 is silent?

First off, my observations of China's Brown moon are a bit viral.  I'm waiting to see how it turns out.   Just noting it as a potential "sign" for now.   So won't argue the case.

Regarding your SILENCE dispute, I have covered the ISRO case in this document:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xpYHdfFNGjDRbIVIKnoVFSpIb657gNTUtHH1b_79N6U/edit?usp=drive_link

I'd be pleased to have you look over it, and give feedback/corrections.

Your specific counter-claim to SILENCE is addressed on page 7, like this:
===
Lone Anomaly: Low-Level ISRO Employee Presents the Image, buried in Webinar:
Here is the link which shows the imagery for 133 seconds, buried midway into a 3.2 hour webinar targeted at hiring new employees.  The presenter has 1.7 yrs of tech school, and no stated degree (so maybe an Associate’s degree at best?).

Here is the presenter’s info, Amitabh.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Amitabh-Amitabh

===


Given that ISRO's high-res coverage of the moon is < 1% of the surface area so far - and that of this < 1%, both Apollo 11 and 12 were targeted...  but never mentioned anywhere on their public sites.

It's not even shown in the Chandrayaan gallery -- lots of ordinary shots in there, but showing the FIRST EVER HIGH RESOLUTION IMAGES of Apollo 11/12  (contested/disbelieved by 100's of millions worldwide) -- DID NOT MAKE THE CUT?

It would have taken them 1 hr to post these..  Not worth their time?

Or are they distancing themselves?

I realize the image was labeled as received by India - fine.  It would look more suspicious otherwise.   However, NASA is a TRUSTED partner.  How hard would it be for them to get ahold of this 1 GB of source data, modify it, and then save overtop the existing image?   All ISRO would have to do is "be a little negligent" - after all, they "trust" NASA, so why would they be guarding against foulplay by a single NASA agent equipped with a little knowledge about how to conduct the edits?

That's my running hypothesis on this.

Meanwhile, the dishonest Apollogists will continue to frame this as "India Validated Apollo!" (when it 's ISRO, not India, and a tight collaborator with NASA, not independent, and neither organization will even announce or show in their gallery these images)

If NASA comes out in a year to state, "we think Apollo never landed humans on the moon", how would you react?

You have a whole site entrenched in defending NASA's truth.  What would you do if you found out that it was at least partly a Lie (i.e. just the landing on the moon part, perhaps)

[najak]

The photos were widely published in books, popular magazines, professional magazines and scientific papers. You can find many examples that I own here:
https://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/ephemera/ephemera.html

Love your site.  This is the first I've seen it.  Robust, with lots of info.  Nice.

Before I bring up new "MLH zingers", I'll check your site to see how you've dealt with it so far.

Thank you for chiming in and contribution here.  I am honored by your time.

[najak]

The photos were widely published in books, popular magazines, professional magazines and scientific papers. You can find many examples that I own here:
https://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/ephemera/ephemera.html

I checked your site, and didn't see this "Flag Waving" for Apollo 14 covered.

Would you weigh in here, to give me a theory as to how you might explain these 8 flag movements?

So far, this one seem irrefutable.