Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched

[najak]

Here's all the adjustment I think needs doing to my explanation:

LOL.

So the long-video low-rez seems to have been doctored to get rid of the first flag waving, by showing a 1 minute excerpt from the end overtop of it.   Apollogists handling these videos is a bit like having the Fox guard the hen house.  The "defects" seem to get omitted or cropped.

The first flag waving on Low res, should occur at 10:12:30 - instead we are pre-watching the "end of the clip" where he throws down the white bag and they say "Good throw".... so the part that would show the flag waving has been replaced by duplicate footage.

If Apollo was faked, I believe many Apollogists simply would never want to know -- ruins their worldview, and probably a lot of investment, that goes to pot, if the fraud is exposed.   This isn't a world you'd want to live in, I imagine.

[BertieSlack]

proven by simple high school physics logic.

Nope. Just your wishful thinking.

BTW - the RCS hot fire test on Apollo 12 blew the erectable S-band antenna over.

[najak]

Here's all the adjustment I think needs doing to my explanation:

OK - completed a draft round of analysis here.

I think I get your theory:
1. Pole is slanted, so when exhaust pushes the flag off screen, and when the exhaust subsides (e.g. they close the valve for equipment/safety checks) -- the flag comes back on screen, because of this tilt.
2. The flag will be on screen when "at rest", and off screen as it is pushed by the Exhaust.

===
When I twist everything in favor of the Apollogist, I still cannot resolve a number of critical issues with your theory:

1. Depressurization procedures only allow for high pressure evacuation for about 1 minute.  Yet your theory has this exhaust breeze holding the flag away for about 116 seconds total, after it's first appearance to it's final appearance.  This doesn't include the concept of "what about BEFORE the flag first shows up???"

2. What brought the flag onto the screen to start with? (continuation from #1)

3. Why was the top of the flag always SLANTED off screen to the top pole?  This is a sure sign of "breeze pushing it on screen", and not being "at rest" per your theory.

4. Your theory has a "grand finale" where the PSI is about 0.1 PSI - that flows the flag to do a 180, and then stay there.

[najak]

BTW - the RCS hot fire test on Apollo 12 blew the erectable S-band antenna over.

I was aware of this.  But there's a HUGE difference between evacuating 7 lbs of oxygen through at 5 PSI (which falls to 1 PSI within a minute), vs. an RCS thruster which shoots out exhaust at about MACH 5 from an uber violent fuel burn.   Each RCS thruster emits about 5 oz/sec of exhaust... so it's considerably heavier and a WHOLE LOT FASTER.

Your comparison is like comparing a toddler throwing a rock at someone, vs. shooting it from a cannon.

I'm not convinced that the 1 ounce of air expelled from even 5 PSI, would impact the flag from 8 meters away....  And the 5 PSI drops to 3.5 PSI in 15 seconds, then to 2 PSI in 20 more seconds and in 30 more seconds, it below 1 PSI...   

Yet Apollogist theories have this "blowing the flag" for multiple minutes... ending with a "grand finale" that blows the flag to do a 180 (and then stay there).

[BertieSlack]

BTW - the RCS hot fire test on Apollo 12 blew the erectable S-band antenna over.

I was aware of this.  But there's a HUGE difference between evacuating 7 lbs of oxygen through at 5 PSI (which falls to 1 PSI within a minute), vs. an RCS thruster which shoots out exhaust at about MACH 5 from an uber violent fuel burn.   Each RCS thruster emits about 5 oz/sec of exhaust... so it's considerably heavier and a WHOLE LOT FASTER.

Your comparison is like comparing a toddler throwing a rock at someone, vs. shooting it from a cannon.

I'm not convinced that the 1 ounce of air expelled from even 5 PSI, would impact the flag from 8 meters away....  And the 5 PSI drops to 3.5 PSI in 15 seconds, then to 2 PSI in 20 more seconds and in 30 more seconds, it below 1 PSI...   

Yet Apollogist theories have this "blowing the flag" for multiple minutes... ending with a "grand finale" that blows the flag to do a 180 (and then stay there).

I was not comparing the RCS hot-fire to the cabin depress. I did, however, manage to provoke you into completely contradicting your earlier claims about the movement of the flag. As I said several days ago, it is the decreasing force of the depress which allows the flag to be rotated around and then not have the power to blow it back round. Have you forgotten your weather vane analogy which relies on continuing force to keep the flag pointing away from the LM? I also asked you to consider that the flag did not have consistent rotational inertia and could stick in a certain position. Care to address that?

[najak]

I was not comparing the RCS hot-fire to the cabin depress. I did, however, manage to provoke you into completely contradicting your earlier claims about the movement of the flag. As I said several days ago, it is the decreasing force of the depress which allows the flag to be rotated around and then not have the power to blow it back round. Have you forgotten your weather vane analogy which relies on continuing force to keep the flag pointing away from the LM? I also asked you to consider that the flag did not have consistent rotational inertia and could stick in a certain position. Care to address that?

I'll be happy to answer, I'll need you to clarify more about what you are saying.   And BTW, if I said something "wrong earlier" but no longer think that "wrong thing" - this is to my credit.  Most people tend to double-down on what they think.   If you think I'm saying something "wrong", etc -- please clarify it more, so that I can assess it.

And even better - can you detail for me a possible explanation for the Flag's behavior, with these 8 movements?

[bknight]

You need to clarify everything you say, because you don't make much sense with all this rambling.

[bknight]

Hey "physics" buy najack:
I have vidoe I'd like you to comment on since so are such a physics enthusiast.  Proof that the A14 mission indeed was on the Moon despite you beliefs.

[Mag40]

Yet Apollogist theories have this "blowing the flag" for multiple minutes... ending with a "grand finale" that blows the flag to do a 180 (and then stay there).

And the incessant childish posturing, replete with the same statement that has had an explanation given.

The "grand finale" occurs as the second PLSS strikes the surface. If you want to be an arse again and pull me up for suggesting it hit the flag, knock yourself out. It struck the rock hard lunar surface and at the same time we see the flag flutter.

So, either there is a stagehand doing something, a big gust of wind/whatever, a simultaneous incident...... or that small vibration was enough to move the pole and cause the flag to wobble. The 2nd PLSS landing does offer an explanation and nothing you could possibly say could 100% refute it, unless you can tell me the landing force, the soil density, the stability of the pole, the force needed to move it etc. Your claim is nothing more than you throwing your toys out of the pram.

Either way we're back to the "NASA are morons" bollocks again.

[bknight]

BTW - the RCS hot fire test on Apollo 12 blew the erectable S-band antenna over.

I was aware of this.  But there's a HUGE difference between evacuating 7 lbs of oxygen through at 5 PSI (which falls to 1 PSI within a minute), vs. an RCS thruster which shoots out exhaust at about MACH 5 from an uber violent fuel burn.   Each RCS thruster emits about 5 oz/sec of exhaust... so it's considerably heavier and a WHOLE LOT FASTER.

Your comparison is like comparing a toddler throwing a rock at someone, vs. shooting it from a cannon.

I'm not convinced that the 1 ounce of air expelled from even 5 PSI, would impact the flag from 8 meters away....  And the 5 PSI drops to 3.5 PSI in 15 seconds, then to 2 PSI in 20 more seconds and in 30 more seconds, it below 1 PSI...   

Yet Apollogist theories have this "blowing the flag" for multiple minutes... ending with a "grand finale" that blows the flag to do a 180 (and then stay there).

180 is a gross exaggeration, backing back from all the images on ALSJ, it is apparent the flag was position from the LM 20-30 so a movement of 150-160 is doable.  What you are convince of and reality are two different outcomes.  Have you done any vacuum chamber studies, or are you just guessing again?

[najak]

180 is a gross exaggeration, backing back from all the images on ALSJ, it is apparent the flag was position from the LM 20-30 so a movement of 150-160 is doable.  What you are convince of and reality are two different outcomes.  Have you done any vacuum chamber studies, or are you just guessing again?

Good point, 180 isn't correct, because it didn't start at 0.    So my 180 reference is a reference to relative orientation vs. the LM.   It didn't start at 0 so it didn't do a "180".  So it was closer to 150 deg?   No matter, this truly is a "grand finale" at a time where there was NO PSI left in the cabin.   The   Since the Flag motions are spread across 175 seconds, and Decompression mostly occurs in about 60 seconds.

I would LOVE for NASA to do some vacuum analysis with a flag involved.  Simulate 3 oz/sec of oxygen being emitted from a 5 PSI cannister into the CENTER of a 20x20 meter vacuum chamber, with a flag positioned 8 meters away...  and see if the flag moves at all.  I am doubtful, because in my mind - all of the men-on-the-moon footage was faked...   I believe this for dozens of very compelling reasons.  I'm starting with the "Apollo Broke Physics" reasons first.   If they ran this test - it could build my case of "yet another thing that was impossible that Apollogists believe".
===

The OneBigMonkey major flaw in his hypothesis is that it demands 116 seconds of blowing during this 175 second period, plus minutes of blowing beforehand.   He's got no rationale for what brought the flag onto the screen to start with.   Nor is the Depressurization capable of providing the 116 seconds of blowing -- with a grand finale of a "big turn" at the end.

And @Mag40's "bag reverb" is just ludicrous.  Regolith is as dense as sand, and loosely packed.. So would never carry a reverb many feet away..   and then defies OneBigMonkey's big "Pole was tilted TOWARDS the LM"-- and so such a reverb would only cause it to rotate TOWARDS the LM - not away.  And how in his mind he would even translate "a quick ground vibration from feet away" into "a force that imparts rotational spin on a thin pole" - is beyond me.

[bknight]

180 is a gross exaggeration, backing back from all the images on ALSJ, it is apparent the flag was position from the LM 20-30 so a movement of 150-160 is doable.  What you are convince of and reality are two different outcomes.  Have you done any vacuum chamber studies, or are you just guessing again?

Good point, 180 isn't correct, because it didn't start at 0.    So my 180 reference is a reference to relative orientation vs. the LM.   It didn't start at 0 so it didn't do a "180".  So it was closer to 150 deg?   No matter, this truly is a "grand finale" at a time where there was NO PSI left in the cabin.   The   Since the Flag motions are spread across 175 seconds, and Decompression mostly occurs in about 60 seconds.

I would LOVE for NASA to do some vacuum analysis with a flag involved.  Simulate 3 oz/sec of oxygen being emitted from a 5 PSI cannister into the CENTER of a 20x20 meter vacuum chamber, with a flag positioned 8 meters away...  and see if the flag moves at all.  I am doubtful, because in my mind - all of the men-on-the-moon footage was faked...   I believe this for dozens of very compelling reasons.  I'm starting with the "Apollo Broke Physics" reasons first.   If they ran this test - it could build my case of "yet another thing that was impossible that Apollogists believe".

They're not doing anything of the sort they have the evidence of the Lunar mission that you are desperately try to refute.

===

The OneBigMonkey major flaw in his hypothesis is that it demands 116 seconds of blowing during this 175 second period, plus minutes of blowing beforehand.   He's got no rationale for what brought the flag onto the screen to start with.   Nor is the Depressurization capable of providing the 116 seconds of blowing -- with a grand finale of a "big turn" at the end.

And @Mag40's "bag reverb" is just ludicrous.  Regolith is as dense as sand, and loosely packed.. So would never carry a reverb many feet away..   and then defies OneBigMonkey's big "Pole was tilted TOWARDS the LM"-- and so such a reverb would only cause it to rotate TOWARDS the LM - not away.  And how in his mind he would even translate "a quick ground vibration from feet away" into "a force that imparts rotational spin on a thin pole" - is beyond me.

So are your explanations , let me put it like this something moved the flag, it was air it wasn't gremlins, it was not anything on Earth since the LM was on the Moon.  You do remember that the descent stage  has been imaged on the Moon by at least the LRO, if not others.  ow about your physics discussion of the video I posted.

[najak]

... let me put it like this something moved the flag, it was air it wasn't gremlins, it was not anything on Earth since the LM was on the Moon.

Your starting supposition here is "it was all real; on the moon".  But your supposition doesn't hold up under this scrutiny.

There currently exists no viable legitimate explanation for the 8 flag movements that we clearly see happening here.   Therefore, maybe that magician didn't really cut the woman in half, as you are assuming.

The only viable explanation remains is that "the flag was moved by a slight draft TOWARDS the LM, for a total of about 60 seconds total across the 4 instances of it being Pushed TOWARDS the LM".

[Mag40]

And @Mag40's "bag reverb" is just ludicrous.  Regolith is as dense as sand, and loosely packed..  ground vibration from feet away" .

Wow, that sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. The upper layer is dust, but just below densely packed. In low gravity it certainly doesn't need much vibration to affect a pole hammered into the ground. It's why I said you don't know the flagpole stability. It could have been close to a simple tipping point.

It occurs at the same point in time. It is the same idiotic claim that someone in NASA thought it ok or nobody noticed. Logic vaccuum.

[najak]

I said you don't know the flagpole stability. It could have been close to a simple tipping point.

If you are right, that the "tipping of the flag could cause this" - then you are simultaneously undermining the MAIN PREMISE of OneBigMonkey's whole hypothesis, of how "pole tilt TOWARDS the LM" explains the flag motions (yet, his hypothesis has several gaping holes in it already).

So you first need to debate OneBigMonkey on this.   I believe he would firmly disagree with your claim.

Also - this whole bag vibration, for me, is "out of scope" -- it happens AFTER the 8 flag motions....   and so you are only trying to explain how it turned the poll by about 150 degrees.   This is out of scope -- happens AFTER the 8 flag motions - which IS the point of this thread.   These 8 motions have no viable explanation within the Lunar Vacuum environment.