Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched

[Bryanpoprobson]

And @Mag40's "bag reverb" is just ludicrous.  Regolith is as dense as sand, and loosely packed..  ground vibration from feet away" .

Wow, that sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. The upper layer is dust, but just below densely packed. In low gravity it certainly doesn't need much vibration to affect a pole hammered into the ground. It's why I said you don't know the flagpole stability. It could have been close to a simple tipping point.

It occurs at the same point in time. It is the same idiotic claim that someone in NASA thought it ok or nobody noticed. Logic vaccuum.

Confirmation of how far in the flag pole went from the astronauts themselves.
Aldrin, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "How far would you estimate you got it into the ground?"]

[Armstrong, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "Six to eight inches was about as far as I could get it in."]

[Aldrin, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "It was fairly easy to get it down the first 4 or 5 inches."]

[Armstrong, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "It gets hard quickly."]

[bknight]

Have got any rebuttal to the video I posted or are you going to agree with it?  If you don't agree, what physics do you present in this case?

[Mag40]

If you are right, that the "tipping of the flag could cause this" - then you are simultaneously undermining the MAIN PREMISE of OneBigMonkey's whole hypothesis, of how "pole tilt TOWARDS the LM" explains the flag motions (yet, his hypothesis has several gaping holes in it already).

God man, you do talk bollocks. It's almost as though you will go to any length to concede plausibie explanations for things, that had NASA thought up to show, would go down in the "Shoot your own foot, because we're total morons" category. Their objective is to supposedly fake things and yet all they do is contrive needless footage for the "smart" people to discover. HBs just don't have any logic at all.

Plus, here we are arguing trivial points when totally clear things have already proven they are in low gravity vacuum.

The PLSS hits the surface fairly hard. Remaining consumables vented out. It's certainly not out of the question.

Also - this whole bag vibration, for me, is "out of scope" -- it happens AFTER the 8 flag motions....   and so you are only trying to explain how it turned the poll by about 150 degrees.   This is out of scope -- happens AFTER the 8 flag motions - which IS the point of this thread.   These 8 motions have no viable explanation within the Lunar Vacuum environment.

Did he really just repeat his claim and ignore the depressurisation again? What a waste of time this is rapidly becoming.

[najak]

Have got any rebuttal to the video I posted or are you going to agree with it?  If you don't agree, what physics do you present in this case?

If you want to discuss this, you should make your own thread.  This is a specific instance where you believe "it could NOT have been faked"... and if you did find something IMPOSSIBLE TO FAKE, that would bode well for Apollogists.  So give it a shot.

[najak]

What a waste of time this is rapidly becoming.

For this topic, and for you specifically, I agree.  Your continued comments here are a waste of time.

Save yourself for my next topic.  I find your comments BENEFICIAL for each thread... but then we beat the horse to death - and it becomes a waste of time.

I'm still wanting to see if anyone here can present a fully-valid explanation of the 8 flag movements alone.  Otherwise, I'll call this "unrefuted".

In order for a hypothesis to be valid, it has to account for a full 7-minutes, starting 2 minutes before the flag first appears, and ending 2 minutes after it is last seen.

Everyone here is claiming that "this has been refuted for Decades!" -- if this is true, then why can no one tell me a hypothesis which covers the full 7 minute time period?

This should be "easy"... but still remains unrefuted here.

[onebigmonkey]

I'm still wanting to see if anyone here can present a fully-valid explanation of the 8 flag movements alone.  Otherwise, I'll call this "unrefuted".

No, you're wanting everyone to agree with you. Seeing as you aren't presenting anything that can be agreed with, that isn't going to happen.

You've been given a perfectly reasonable explanation, repeatedly, that is entirely consistent with the events broadcast on live TV, Hasselblad photographs, 16mm footage,  mission procedures and transcripts. Your claim is refuted.

[najak]

#1: Seeing as you aren't presenting anything that can be agreed with, that isn't going to happen.
#2: You've been given a perfectly reasonable explanation, repeatedly, that is entirely consistent with the events broadcast on live TV, Hasselblad photographs, 16mm footage,  mission procedures and transcripts. Your claim is refuted.

#1: My claim can be agreed with, and is clear and comprehensive:
1. Each time flag comes on screen, it is for short period of time, and demonstrates a "Slanted" top, showing connection to the pole offscreen.  Thus it is being "PUSHED TOWARDS THE LM" these 4x.
2. Each time flag goes off screen, it is just "returning to At rest" (hanging straight down). 
3. The push towards the LM is caused by gentle atmospheric motion (if in a studio, could be AC venting causing air current in the hangar, or the hangar isn't air tight, or a few entrances were open - take your pick).
(or if they were outside on a windless night-- then an occasional breeze still happens)


#2: So where is the Apollogist Hypothesis that explains:
1. The timing that MUST be associated/aligned with the decompression process.
2. The dynamic for ALL 8 movements over a 3 minute time period.
3. The rationale for why we didn't see the flag anytime BEFORE or AFTER these supernatural 3 minutes.

Your existing theory claims:
1. When offscreen, it's because the exhaust is pushing it offscreen -- for a total or 116 seconds, during the 3 minute period of waving.
2. Isn't pushing it for 59 of these seconds... so it's on screen.
3. Has a grand finale at the end which then pushes it off screen for good, rotating the pole.  So that no more exhaust is needed.

Critical Issues with this claim:
1. How was it off screen for the 10 minutes preceding the first time the flag comes on screen?
2. When depressurization falls from 5 PSI to 1 PSI in under 60 seconds... how is it pushing the flag offscreen for 116 seconds?
3. After 60 seconds of depressurization, the exhaust rate falls from 2.5 oz/sec to under 0.5 oz/sec, and only back by <  1 PSI for "providing it initial energy required to move a flag"
4. How what there a grand finale at the end, when there was no pressure left inside the cabin?

I get that you don't (and won't) accept the implied conclusion from this.  But it does seem that you've given up on providing a hypothesis that actually works here.

Which means, we can close out this Issue as "No existing Apollogist hypothesis to explain these flag movements."

I think it's time to move on to the next items, in my list.

Here's the spreadsheet that shows the Timing from the perspective of 2 Videos, and the Surface Journal.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_7OaXUWMiiNKzo50J9WBvDjEzNZoKmPBx8XndBtHaMI/edit?usp=sharing

[Mag40]

Have got any rebuttal to the video I posted or are you going to agree with it?  If you don't agree, what physics do you present in this case?

If you want to discuss this, you should make your own thread.  This is a specific instance where you believe "it could NOT have been faked"... and if you did find something IMPOSSIBLE TO FAKE, that would bode well for Apollogists.  So give it a shot.

Cue chicken-noises. It's just a simple piece of footage from the same mission showing something you absolutely cannot explain, save with your usual diversionary bluster. You are running away from things that don't fit your pre-conceived unscientific tosh.

You post ridiculous religion comparisons and references to bloody Epstein!

[Mag40]

For this topic, and for you specifically, I agree.  Your continued comments here are a waste of time.

Save yourself for my next topic.  I find your comments BENEFICIAL for each thread... but then we beat the horse to death - and it becomes a waste of time.

Your behaviour, your continued evasion and diversion is the "waste of time" bit.

From the moment the flag is planted, through 2 EVAs right up until they ingress for the last time....it stays in the same position. During a period where depressurising is happening, where objects are being thrown out. The flag moves a little.

What happened, did the stagehand pop in with sandwiches and leave the door open? HB and logic are not great companions.

[bknight]

Have got any rebuttal to the video I posted or are you going to agree with it?  If you don't agree, what physics do you present in this case?

If you want to discuss this, you should make your own thread.  This is a specific instance where you believe "it could NOT have been faked"... and if you did find something IMPOSSIBLE TO FAKE, that would bode well for Apollogists.  So give it a shot.

I'm playing your games, the video proves that the video is taken on the Moon and thus with less gravity.  So all your comments about not be on the Moon dissipates into nothingness.

[onebigmonkey]

#1: Seeing as you aren't presenting anything that can be agreed with, that isn't going to happen.
#2: You've been given a perfectly reasonable explanation, repeatedly, that is entirely consistent with the events broadcast on live TV, Hasselblad photographs, 16mm footage,  mission procedures and transcripts. Your claim is refuted.

#1: My claim can be agreed with, and is clear and comprehensive:

No, it isn't.

1. Each time flag comes on screen, it is for short period of time, and demonstrates a "Slanted" top, showing connection to the pole offscreen.  Thus it is being "PUSHED TOWARDS THE LM" these 4x.

Of course it is connected to the flag pole. The slant can be observed in all the footage and still photographs, but you would be unwise to draw any conclusions on the angle it's sloping based on a camera that may not be vertical and the fraction of flagpole you can see in the footage you prefer to look at. x does not equal y here.

2. Each time flag goes off screen, it is just "returning to At rest" (hanging straight down). 

Correct. What is "straight down" supposed to mean?

3. The push towards the LM is caused by gentle atmospheric motion (if in a studio, could be AC venting causing air current in the hangar, or the hangar isn't air tight, or a few entrances were open - take your pick).
(or if they were outside on a windless night-- then an occasional breeze still happens)

Again, you're assuming an awful lot based on nothing you can actually see.

#2: So where is the Apollogist Hypothesis that explains:
1. The timing that MUST be associated/aligned with the decompression process.
2. The dynamic for ALL 8 movements over a 3 minute time period.

Yes. And?

3. The rationale for why we didn't see the flag anytime BEFORE or AFTER these supernatural 3 minutes.

Because it is off screen. At rest. You remember when you were happy that this was the case?

Your existing theory claims:
1. When offscreen, it's because the exhaust is pushing it offscreen -- for a total or 116 seconds, during the 3 minute period of waving.
2. Isn't pushing it for 59 of these seconds... so it's on screen.
3. Has a grand finale at the end which then pushes it off screen for good, rotating the pole.  So that no more exhaust is needed.

Critical Issues with this claim:
1. How was it off screen for the 10 minutes preceding the first time the flag comes on screen?
2. When depressurization falls from 5 PSI to 1 PSI in under 60 seconds... how is it pushing the flag offscreen for 116 seconds?
3. After 60 seconds of depressurization, the exhaust rate falls from 2.5 oz/sec to under 0.5 oz/sec, and only back by <  1 PSI for "providing it initial energy required to move a flag"
4. How what there a grand finale at the end, when there was no pressure left inside the cabin?

Air from the LM acts on the flag when it meets the flag face. It stops acting on the flag face when it is no longer presented normal to the air flow. Lunar gravity does the rest.

I get that you don't (and won't) accept the implied conclusion from this.

Because you're wrong.

  But it does seem that you've given up on providing a hypothesis that actually works here.

Given up? No. Can't be arsed with your game playing and fabricated version of events? Yes. You've had your hypothesis. Nothing you've provided contradicts it. No-one has to play by whatever rules you've decided to play with. No-one has to do your bidding. I've got far more interesting things to do, like looking at the newly uploaded images of Apollo 14 taken by South Korea.

Which means, we can close out this Issue as "No existing Apollogist hypothesis to explain these flag movements."

You're pretty much just a pigeon playing chess here.

[bknight]

#1: Seeing as you aren't presenting anything that can be agreed with, that isn't going to happen.
#2: You've been given a perfectly reasonable explanation, repeatedly, that is entirely consistent with the events broadcast on live TV, Hasselblad photographs, 16mm footage,  mission procedures and transcripts. Your claim is refuted.

#1: My claim can be agreed with, and is clear and comprehensive:
1. Each time flag comes on screen, it is for short period of time, and demonstrates a "Slanted" top, showing connection to the pole offscreen.  Thus it is being "PUSHED TOWARDS THE LM" these 4x.
2. Each time flag goes off screen, it is just "returning to At rest" (hanging straight down). 
3. The push towards the LM is caused by gentle atmospheric motion (if in a studio, could be AC venting causing air current in the hangar, or the hangar isn't air tight, or a few entrances were open - take your pick).
(or if they were outside on a windless night-- then an occasional breeze still happens)


#2: So where is the Apollogist Hypothesis that explains:
1. The timing that MUST be associated/aligned with the decompression process.
2. The dynamic for ALL 8 movements over a 3 minute time period.
3. The rationale for why we didn't see the flag anytime BEFORE or AFTER these supernatural 3 minutes.

Your existing theory claims:
1. When offscreen, it's because the exhaust is pushing it offscreen -- for a total or 116 seconds, during the 3 minute period of waving.
2. Isn't pushing it for 59 of these seconds... so it's on screen.
3. Has a grand finale at the end which then pushes it off screen for good, rotating the pole.  So that no more exhaust is needed.

Critical Issues with this claim:
1. How was it off screen for the 10 minutes preceding the first time the flag comes on screen?
2. When depressurization falls from 5 PSI to 1 PSI in under 60 seconds... how is it pushing the flag offscreen for 116 seconds?
3. After 60 seconds of depressurization, the exhaust rate falls from 2.5 oz/sec to under 0.5 oz/sec, and only back by <  1 PSI for "providing it initial energy required to move a flag"
4. How what there a grand finale at the end, when there was no pressure left inside the cabin?

I get that you don't (and won't) accept the implied conclusion from this.  But it does seem that you've given up on providing a hypothesis that actually works here.

Which means, we can close out this Issue as "No existing Apollogist hypothesis to explain these flag movements."

I think it's time to move on to the next items, in my list.

Here's the spreadsheet that shows the Timing from the perspective of 2 Videos, and the Surface Journal.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_7OaXUWMiiNKzo50J9WBvDjEzNZoKmPBx8XndBtHaMI/edit?usp=sharing

Clearly the video I posted demonstrates to anyone with rudimentary skills that the LM is on the Moon so all of your "studio door must open" or "hangar not sealed" are incorrect, you FAIL miserably.

[najak]

Air from the LM acts on the flag when it meets the flag face. It stops acting on the flag face when it is no longer presented normal to the air flow. Lunar gravity does the rest.

This hypothesis fails the test of 116 seconds of "air from the LM", as well as the minutes PRIOR to the first flag appearance.

The LM doesn't have "that much air" -- after 51 seconds of decompression, the PSI falls from 5 PSI to 1 PSI.   30 seconds later, it's at 0.4 PSI.   30 seconds later, 0.2 PSI or less.

So your current hypothesis fails to explain the flag motion.

I'm OK with ending this thread.  Everyone has had their shot at presenting a viable hypothesis, and so this thread is complete.

[LunarOrbit]

I'm OK with ending this thread.  Everyone has had their shot at presenting a viable hypothesis, and so this thread is complete.

Nope, it doesn't work like that. You can admit defeat if you want, but you don't get to dismiss all of the answers you have been given and self-declare victory.

You are not going to be allowed to start any new topics until your existing ones are properly resolved, and that will only happen if you show that you are capable of an honest debate.

[najak]

Nope, it doesn't work like that. You can admit defeat if you want, but you don't get to dismiss all of the answers you have been given and self-declare victory.
You are not going to be allowed to start any new topics until your existing ones are properly resolved, and that will only happen if you show that you are capable of an honest debate.

If I don't come to YOUR CONCLUSION - I cannot start any new threads.  I thought you didn't want an Echo Chamber here?

Have you ever heard, "Agree to Disagree".  We've reached the point of beating dead horses.  We're going in circles.

As I see it, no hypothesis proposed so far - truly satisfies the requirement of explaining all 8 flag movements.

If you disagree, please tell me at least One Hypothesis that truly satisfies this requirement. 

If you want to say "we're not going to do that for you"-- that's fine too.    This debate is going in circles, but you won't let it end until I agree with YOU.  Is this how it really works here?