Author Topic: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched  (Read 44393 times)

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #315 on: January 13, 2025, 05:19:10 PM »
The rate at which something loses heat through radiation depends more than you think on the amount of radiant heat it is simultaneously receiving. Objects in Earth orbit lose heat at a slower rate (and thereby generally maintain a higher temperature) simply because Earth is brighter; it reflects more light back into space than the Moon. That reflected light is heavy on infrared wavelengths, but in the Moon's case the albedo difference matters a lot.

Sweet, points to me :)

The first thing I thought of when I was reading the post was 'what was different about Apollo 8 compared to everything else we had done at that point?', with the obvious answer being; they were orbiting the moon. Then a few little 'info-nuggets' in the head kinda rolled together and I'm looking for the different rates at which the Earth and moon emit 'energy', and seeing it's not an insignificant difference. Seemed like the most likely reason, would be that all the manned flight up until then was around the Earth, so while they probably spent more time in the shade around Earth (no, I haven't looked into this, just a rough 'seems right to me' guess), they were also receiving more energy around Earth than they would the moon.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #316 on: January 13, 2025, 05:46:40 PM »
May be worth including the fact that both the Moon and Earth radiate thermal IR from their dark sides and well as when in daylight, and this may need to be included in the thermal balance.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #317 on: January 14, 2025, 07:52:44 AM »
so while they probably spent more time in the shade around Earth (no, I haven't looked into this, just a rough 'seems right to me' guess),

If I've done the calculations correctly, they actually spent slightly more time in lunar shadow than in Earth shadow. Proportionally speaking, lunar orbit was higher than Earth orbit, so a smaller proportion of the orbital ellipse was in shadow, but it was also a slower orbit. It would appear to be only ten minutes longer per orbit in shadow around the Moon than around Earth, but I can imagine that being significant in terms of thermal transfer.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #318 on: January 14, 2025, 02:27:57 PM »
Thermal design is one of those disciplines that cut across multiple aspects of spacecraft design and development. It can be very vexing. Initially you start with purely passive solutions, but in the end you often have to revise large elements of the overall spacecraft chassis either to retain the passive thermal control or accommodate more active elements such as heat pipes and fluid flow systems that become necessary. There is no part or phase of spacecraft design that gets to ignore thermal behavior. But even passive systems rely on assumptions of radiative emissivity in components. Especially at or near the lunar surface, it's hard to stay within reasonable assumptions. Simply having a view factor to the sunlit side of a rock can change the physical properties enough to cause problems in a radiator.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #319 on: January 15, 2025, 04:22:59 AM »
Especially at or near the lunar surface, it's hard to stay within reasonable assumptions.

But, but, isn't it just that it's really hot in the sun and cold in the shade? That's what Joe 'never done any thermodynamics courses but who needs them when you have google' Bloggs says all the time when talking about Apollo...

This kind of complexity is why I got drawn into the sciences. The more you learn the more you realise there is to learn, and that many 'solutions' really boil down to 'this is the best we can do and it still might go wrong so we need a contingency for that, which will introduce its own complications, so we create this system that as far as we know should work well enough to complete the thing it is meant to do if all goes well and we've anticipated the problems correctly'. And that that's okay. Too many hoax believers operate on the impossible notion that the designers had to find the perfect solution to every problem (or indeed that such a solution even exists).
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Peter B

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #320 on: January 15, 2025, 07:34:33 AM »
Especially at or near the lunar surface, it's hard to stay within reasonable assumptions.

But, but, isn't it just that it's really hot in the sun and cold in the shade? That's what Joe 'never done any thermodynamics courses but who needs them when you have google' Bloggs says all the time when talking about Apollo...

This kind of complexity is why I got drawn into the sciences. The more you learn the more you realise there is to learn, and that many 'solutions' really boil down to 'this is the best we can do and it still might go wrong so we need a contingency for that, which will introduce its own complications, so we create this system that as far as we know should work well enough to complete the thing it is meant to do if all goes well and we've anticipated the problems correctly'. And that that's okay. Too many hoax believers operate on the impossible notion that the designers had to find the perfect solution to every problem (or indeed that such a solution even exists).

And/or complain that every mission worked perfectly and how unlikely is that!!!11!!1
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #321 on: January 15, 2025, 07:36:30 AM »
Apart from those little mishaps they put in to give it an air of verisimilitude, of course....  ;)
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #322 on: January 15, 2025, 10:44:28 AM »
But, but, isn't it just that it's really hot in the sun and cold in the shade?
Sure. And as soon as you figure out what "it" is you'll be going places.

For a given point on a surface, the amount of heat it can radiate is determined partly by the radiation falling on it from nearby radiant sources—either emitters or reflectors. In the pure language of physics, this is one of those "nasty integrals." Just the geometric part (i.e., "per steradian" irrespective of "per wavelength") is heinous for a single radiant source, let alone all of them. This is what we call the "view factor."

Here's how engineering fudges it.

Imagine a point on the ground surrounded by a smattering of radiant sources. You want to know the total amount of radiant energy incident upon that point. Imagine a circle around your point, of comfortable radius. Now build a hemispherical dome of clear plastic using the circle as your footprint. Put a webcam at your point of interest and aim it in all the various directions. When you get to a radiant source, draw an outline of it in Sharpie on the dome as seen from the center. For the sun, say, you'll have a little circle. For the wall of the next door apartment building, you'll have a certain shape.

Now project all those Sharpie figures downward to the circle, the floor of your little dome tent. Imagine hanging a plumb bob from the outline of each one and then tracing on the floor where that figure lies. Figures near the top of the dome will project downwards in a fairly congruent fashion, since their orientation on the dome means the projection is very nearly perpendicular to the planar approximation of the figure. But for items on the walls closer to the ground, they project obliquely downward. Though they may have significant area on the dome, their projection onto the floor represents the fact that the floor sees them mostly edge on, thus they will be narrower. The area of each projected figure on the floor is a close approximation of its "view factor" to your point of interest—the effect of the geometric relationships (distance, orientation, angle of incidence, etc.). Later you'll come back and add values for intensity and wavelength and all the other physical values you need.

This is a great iterative solution that lends itself well to implementation on a computer without having to analytically derive any nasty integrals. You can set it up to adaptively subdivide the surfaces when it detects that nearby points have markedly different view factors to elements in the environment. Turn on the computer, take a long lunch, and when you come back you'll have a picture (literally) that approximates the radiant influx on each part of your object, including the cases where your object reflects light upon itself. This is why we don't let Frank Gehry build spaceships.

Now they actually did this back in the day for the Apollo lunar module, albeit without the adaptive subdivision. The computer they did this on was about as powerful as an old Apple II, so their results were crude by modern standards. But it was useful information that they wouldn't have been able to get previously at that early stage of design. Now the computer I use for this sort of stuff weighs more than a lunar module...

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This kind of complexity is why I got drawn into the sciences. The more you learn the more you realise there is to learn, and that many 'solutions' really boil down to 'this is the best we can do and it still might go wrong so we need a contingency for that, which will introduce its own complications, so we create this system that as far as we know should work well enough to complete the thing it is meant to do if all goes well and we've anticipated the problems correctly'. And that that's okay. Too many hoax believers operate on the impossible notion that the designers had to find the perfect solution to every problem (or indeed that such a solution even exists).

You can forgive people for thinking Apollo had to be perfect because its designers were sort of driven that way too.

The CM's caution and warning system had an irreducible problem in that when you first turned it on, it would shriek and holler because all the things it was supposed to monitor had not yet "warmed up" to full operating status. The engineers went down a rabbit hole on this problem, trying to adapt the system to all that changing state. As the story goes, it was one of the astronauts who drew the parallel to an automobile. Cars at the time did the same thing; when you first turned them on, a lot of the warning lights came on and then cleared after a few seconds—and no one cared. The solution to the irascible C&W dilemma was to let the CM shriek and holler for a minute or so, and then push the reset button.

Similarly, the LM ascent stage was always slightly off balance. If you watch the 16 mm footage, the LM wallowed constantly in one direction and had to be corrected. This was deemed acceptable since the corrective control action wasn't very significant. But it's one of those things that could have been corrected by a design change, but wasn't. The existing design was "good enough." Hence being successful as an engineer means (among other things) realizing when Better is the enemy of Good, and emotionally letting go of the ghosts in existing designs. Every successful design will still harbor "We never fixed that" issues. And every engineer accumulates a list of, "If we had it to do over again..."
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #323 on: January 15, 2025, 11:19:25 AM »
Apart from those little mishaps they put in to give it an air of verisimilitude, of course....  ;)
After claiming that everything was too perfect, and then being told about all of the documented imperfections, and waving those away as obvious plants to make it more realistic (which they clearly didn't know when they claimed perfection...), I just want to ask them, "What is the correct amount of imperfections for a project this size?" At which point does it become credible that the mishaps are a normal part of the process for something with this complexity without becoming so many that it would be unbelievable that they actually succeeded?

It's a silly question, I suppose, because they've never considered the answer. They're just flailing to maintain their grasp on a conclusion they've decided on without evidence anyway.

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #324 on: January 15, 2025, 11:28:26 AM »
The solution to the irascible C&W dilemma was to let the CM shriek and holler for a minute or so, and then push the reset button.

"Have you tried turning it off and on again" will never get old as a solution, nor, apparently, will it ever stop being a valid solution.  ;D

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #325 on: January 15, 2025, 12:09:05 PM »
This is why we don't let Frank Gehry build spaceships....

... some might argue we shouldn't let him build buildings either!   ;D
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #326 on: January 15, 2025, 12:44:37 PM »
"Have you tried turning it off and on again" will never get old as a solution, nor, apparently, will it ever stop being a valid solution.  ;D
In contrast we can look at Apollo 13 with hindsight and say, "Why sure it's possible to turn on a dormant CSM." But in fact they really didn't know how to do it, or whether it could even be done. This is because no one ever contemplated a survivable scenario in which the CSM would be powered down and then powered back up again in flight. The normal procedure for starting up the CSM took two days and truckloads of ground support equipment. You started up each subsystem appropriately on ground power, let it warm up, took readings, made adjustments, and then moved on to the next step. When you were done, you just let it run continuously on ground power until the crew climbed in and took off. A bootstrapping procedure executed by subject matter experts was so standard that there wasn't even much contemplation of an alternative before being faced with the situation. I'm confident that anyone who has ever worked in a technical capacity understands how and why this is often the best way to get something started.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #327 on: January 15, 2025, 01:15:54 PM »
... some might argue we shouldn't let him build buildings either!   ;D
Indeed, the neighbors of the Disney Concert Hall can tell you a thing or two about heat loads from reflective surfaces. Coincidentally I was doing a performance gig at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion across the street when the Disney hall was being built. I got to see the structural steelwork, which was all kinds of awesome and unconventional (necessarily). Later I found out Gehry's studio uses CATIA software to design his buildings, the same CAD system we use to design spaceships.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #328 on: January 15, 2025, 01:23:50 PM »
The Kapton foil alone is fascinating.

https://apollo11space.com/apollo-11-kapton-foil/

The plumbline, Sharpies and dome, is this the Nusslet analog? Makes for an interesting read.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Reply #329 on: January 15, 2025, 01:39:12 PM »
The Kapton foil alone is fascinating.
Today polyimide tape is ubiquitous in science and industry. We use (nonaluminized) Kapton tape basically as science duct tape, which means we go through it like crap through a goose. At any given time there are several cases of it in my warehouse.

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The plumbline, Sharpies and dome, is this the Nusslet analog? Makes for an interesting read.
Nusselt, but yes.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams