Author Topic: Apollo 13  (Read 221721 times)

Offline dwight

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #120 on: October 15, 2013, 12:43:24 PM »
Would the missing telemetry argument transfer over to music? Because that would mean The Beach Boys: Shut Down Vol. 2 never happened because the multis went missing. Same too for Good Vibrations as the vocal multis went south as well.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #121 on: October 15, 2013, 12:52:43 PM »

Have I missed any?
 ::)

'The "missing" Apollo 11 footage.'
Possibly the 'I'm just asking questions.'

 ;D ;D
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Chew

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #122 on: October 15, 2013, 12:53:56 PM »
Likewise, I'd already examined the document recommended here:

https://sites.google.com/site/chewtansy/msfn/A11_MissionReport.pdf

A word scan for 'Van Allen' brought up only one hit,

If that is the extent of your "investigative journalism" then I weep for your profession.

Page 94 gives the latitude, longitude, and altitude of Apollo 11 from Translunar Injection (TLI) through various events. It is a trivial matter to compare the spacecraft's position relative to the VAB.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #123 on: October 15, 2013, 12:55:51 PM »
Would the missing telemetry argument transfer over to music? Because that would mean The Beach Boys: Shut Down Vol. 2 never happened because the multis went missing. Same too for Good Vibrations as the vocal multis went south as well.

The Buddhas of Bamiyan also must never have existed either...
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #124 on: October 15, 2013, 01:02:00 PM »
Nor did quite a few Dr Who episodes.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 01:04:02 PM by Andromeda »
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #125 on: October 15, 2013, 01:02:26 PM »
I think* that he does not have any technical experience at all. Hence his assertion that he word-searched the document.

Yes and no.  He clearly doesn't have any technical understanding.  But the stunt of doing a simple word-search is his attempt to perpetuate the straw man regardless of whether he knows what he's talking about.  He demands a "Janet and John" explanation from the 1960s, as you say, and has obviously planned to declare victory should we be unable to find exactly what he wants.  So narrowing his search and avoiding any sort of creative or analytical thought is part of the overall (and pretty ham-fisted) rhetorical ploy and is independent of his ability to understand the answers he's been given.

Quote
Instead he gets a page detailing the time and duration of burns (for example). These burns will have set the direction but he has no idea to translate that into a trajectory.

Likely he does not.  But his question is not what the trajectory was, but the motives in designing it to be the way it was.  His claim, based on misinterpreting Alan Bean, appears to be that the hazardous nature of cislunar radiation was not known prior to Apollo.  Hence prior to Apollo there could have been no plan to accommodate or avoid it.  That's why he has set up this ridiculous straw man to argue (from silence) that our supposed inability to document radiation concerns prior to flying the first Apollo mission amounts to a conspicuous omission in the official story therefore a story better defined as an incomplete cover story for fraud rather than a true account of actual missions.

This is why he has to narrowly define what he will accept as documentation.  His line of reasoning, in addition to being logically flawed (i.e., argument from silence), relies upon there being nothing to satisfy his criteria.  So firm is his need that he even tipped his hand prior to issuing his challenge.

He demands material from the Apollo era because if we present anything later, he will likely argue that it was retrospectively applied to Apollo after the true nature of the Van Allen belts became more generally known.  That would fail for a couple reasons.  First, he would have to point to the time where there arose a sudden shift in the world's understanding of cislunar trapped radiation.  Second, it still has to account for how the originally documented Apollo orbits just coincidentally managed to miss where we later discovered the nasty parts of the Van Allen belts to be.  If you watch a driver swerving in a way that manages to miss every pothole on the road, it's very hard to argue he's not swerving with the intent of avoiding potholes.

He demands material mentioning specific things in specific ways because he wants to argue, in the absence of exactly that, that we're just making things up or drawing our own conclusions that wouldn't be supported by primary sources.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #126 on: October 15, 2013, 01:07:04 PM »
Page 94 gives the latitude, longitude, and altitude of Apollo 11 from Translunar Injection (TLI) through various events. It is a trivial matter to compare the spacecraft's position relative to the VAB.

Only if you have a notion of what you are talking about. Of course, if our illustrious hero had the foggiest clue he wouldn't then be trying to use oft-debunked, recycled hoax clap-trap to explain his position.
I think that our hero is too deep into the woo to ever admit that though.....
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #127 on: October 15, 2013, 01:19:09 PM »
given the 'loss' of the telemetry data , ... given the vital and irreplaceable data lost.

The underlined words are your arrogant and presumptive attempt to amplify the apparent value of the data and thus the apparent absurdity in its loss.

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loss by erasure is even more ridiculous than misplacement

No, the world is not required to agree with your uninformed personal judgment on this point.

Due to an unforeseen problem with a new tape vendor, the only media available to record telemetry from subsequent unmanned (i.e., non-Apollo) missions in progress were the older Memorex tapes.  The missions were already in progress and operating according to an inexorable and unalterable timetable;  at a certain point data were going to be sent, and the inability to capture it as it arrived would result in its being forever lost.  These are not simply off-the-shelf media.  They are manufactured on demand and must qualify to a very high standard of mechanical tolerance and chemical purity.  One may not simply run down to Radio Shack and buy new ones.

Apollo telemetry had already been studied.  The video component of Apollo 11 had already been read out from the proprietary, unique format embedded in the unified S-band onto industry-standard NTSC videotape.  Important and valuable elements of the downlink telemetry had already been studied in the form of paper strip charts and their lessons incorporated into subsequent Apollo missions.  In fact, when the tapes were reused, the Apollo program had already ended.  Specific telemetry information is largely useless for subsequent programs because only broader concepts carry from one program to another.  The tapes were largely only backups for the strip charts that were also reading out values in real time.  For example, when the Apollo 13 crisis emerged, the EECOM and other teams did not go back to telemetry tapes.  They were using paper strip charts that were being written as the mission progressed.

Sure there was an interest in preserving Apollo telemetry in its original form.  That's why it had been preserved for as long as it was.  But the problem NASA faced was in balancing the archival value of telemetry that had largely served its practical purpose had had only historical or nostalgic value against the need to acquire and preserve new telemetry from new missions, which had yet to be seen and analyzed by anyone.  The decision in that case is unfortunate, but clear and correct -- the Apollo telemetry tapes were reused in the furtherance of NASA's primary mission at the time the need arose.  Trying to paste other requirements, motives, or constraints on them in retrospect is futile and silly.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 01:21:16 PM by JayUtah »
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #128 on: October 15, 2013, 01:19:46 PM »
I think that our hero is too deep into the woo to ever admit that though.....

Wow.  :o
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #129 on: October 15, 2013, 01:22:59 PM »
Note also that his books are self-published.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #130 on: October 15, 2013, 01:27:38 PM »
I think that our hero is too deep into the woo to ever admit that though.....

Wow.  :o

Aaaannndd another favourite of the hoax-belivers...
http://www.banditobooks.com/essay/content/1.php
 ::) ::)

[sarcasm mode]
Hey, I wonder if Mr Weisbecker has ever written a book or been involved in any screenplays? You think if he did then he might actually mention it once or twice?
[/sarcasm mode]
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline dwight

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #131 on: October 15, 2013, 01:29:27 PM »
On top of all that, NOT ONE, spokesperson for any hoax believer party, who so eloquently try to portray themselves as being so morally outraged that such important historical items as the raw TV data could be wiped, ever made any reference to the importance of said tapes prior to the official announcement made by NASA.

Put simply, they didn't even know that such important tapes were used prior to being told by NASA. As I was very closely involved with the tape search, I know exactly what transpired and what didn't.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #132 on: October 15, 2013, 01:39:28 PM »
Note also that his books are self-published.

He appears to be cut from the same cloth as the late Wayne Green -- which is to say he was so very enamored with his own value as a writer and commentator that he thought no one should fault him for getting the facts woefully and arrogantly wrong.  And like Green, our latest poster seems to think we've never seen or heard the existing body of conspiracy claims and that he can merely parrot them without it seeming so very obvious that's what he's doing.  And, sadly, like Green the middle- and endgame of the debate consists largely of sophomore rhetoric tricks and accusing his critics of being paid shills.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline ajv

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #133 on: October 15, 2013, 01:47:36 PM »
Nor did quite a few Dr Who episodes.
Fortunately that page is out of date as of last week. I'm really, really happy about that.

Offline dwight

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #134 on: October 15, 2013, 01:53:39 PM »
Any word on a telecast date ajv?
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